In this episode of the Optimize Podcast, host Marcia Watson is joined by Todd Packer and Scot Loveland to discuss the evolving relationship between the proposal and acquisition industries and the importance of finding common ground. They delve into the complexities of federal procurement, highlighting the role of small businesses, the importance of clear communication with contracting officers, and how government agencies aim to diversify their supply chains. The discussion emphasizes the need for businesses to be “procurement ready” and the importance of building relationships within the government contracting world.
Marcia Watson (00:02.068)
Welcome to the Visible Thread Optimize podcast. I'm Marcia Watson, CEO of BTW and Company. We are a consultancy of growth strategists, facilitators, and proposal experts passionate about helping government contractors operate more effectively and efficiently to achieve their growth targets and make an even greater impact on their customers' missions. In this Optimize episode, we're bringing together key advisors representing the government and contracting industries.
for a candid conversation about the challenges and opportunities facing both sides. We'll dive deep in the complexities of government contracting processes, exploring shared frustrations and seeking common ground while working with the federal government. Our goal is to foster a better understanding between these two critical sectors. So in this episode, we're going to look for best practices for businesses who are trying to secure government contracts.
Through our guests Todd Packer and Scott Loveland, we'll discuss the evolving landscape of federal procurement, the importance of understanding government regulations, building strong relationships with agencies, and developing compelling proposals. From navigating the bidding process to addressing common pitfalls, our guests offer valuable insights for businesses of all sizes.
So today I'm excited to be joined by Todd Packer, an Innovation Manager and Business Advisor with a wealth of experience in proposal development, technical writing, and strategic planning. He's also a seasoned expert in helping businesses navigate the complexities of government contracts. We're really looking forward to hearing your thoughts and insights on this important topic. And we're equally thrilled to have Scott Loveland join us today.
As the director of the Ohio Apex Accelerator at Youngstown State University, Scott brings a unique blend of military experience, business acumen, and a deep understanding of government contracting. Scott's journey began with distinguished service in the Army as an intelligence specialist and linguist. This invaluable experience laid the groundwork for his successful career in the private sector, where he led aggressive growth strategies for small businesses.
Marcia Watson (02:03.542)
As a veteran business management consultant and former client of the Apex Accelerator himself, Scott is uniquely equipped to guide businesses seeking to expand their reach into the government sector. So let's get started. I'm so happy to have you both here.
Todd Packer (02:13.664)
Yeah, thank you Marcia. It's an honor to be here. This is great.
Scot Loveland (02:18.729)
Thank you for having us, Marcia.
Marcia Watson (02:20.501)
Absolutely.
Love it. Thanks, Todd. So before we dive into our main topic, let's start with what inspired you to pursue a career in government contracting? Todd, do want to go first?
Todd Packer (02:28.688)
Certainly. Well, I'd have to say it was people like Scott, you know, as a small business, small business owner, the complexity of government contracting can be pretty overwhelming. And so as a, as a kind of a small business development center, and over time, I also became a small business advisor, I learned about at the time, the program was called P -TECH for Procurement Technical Assistance Center.
and now Apex Accelerators. And these services, free of charge, are tax dollars at work that helped me not only do the mechanics of understanding registration in government contracts and so forth, but also just the support in this effort, recognizing you're not alone in this and having a guide to understand the landscape was really helpful. I would say fundamentally, I strive for
helping organizations, nonprofits, small businesses, universities, and others identify strategies for growth and innovation. And a big part of that is external funding to help drive that. And a piece of that is federal government, in particular, some of the initiatives through the Small Business Innovation Research Program, SBIR, or SBIR. And in that context, I really see a very powerful opportunity for businesses of all sizes
at this nexus of government, community, industry, and academia or research more broadly. having an understanding of how to communicate often across very different languages and reference points in order to deliver value ultimately to the taxpayer and to citizens in the US and around the world.
Marcia Watson (04:10.776)
Mm -hmm.
Todd Packer (04:23.578)
does not happen fast, but it is vital. And I think that the greater we have these, the more often we have conversations, the greater the collaboration, the better the understanding is beyond scanning the opportunities that come out as RFPs, the more effective we will all be in delivering the solutions that both government and industry need in order for us to continue on the track for innovation to make a better world. So.
recognizing that there is an opportunity to partner with the government on this and that there are allies in this effort really help bring me into this space.
Marcia Watson (04:59.083)
Yeah.
Marcia Watson (05:12.968)
Absolutely. I love that and I love that philosophy, making it better. You know, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to help with this podcast is, you know, having topics that help our industry improve for itself. Federal government is a bureaucracy. It is what it is and it is that way because it needs to be. So to have folks like the Apex Accelerators, teams like the Apex Accelerators help individuals
as they are building their companies and once those companies are established, navigate through. So that takes me over to Scott. Scott, what inspired you to get into this industry?
Scot Loveland (05:49.727)
Yeah, thank you for asking, Marcia. Well, my interpretive dance career was absolutely not taking off and I needed to go into a new direction. And my lovely wife of 32 years pointed out how much I love telling other people what to do. And so it just seemed like a natural fit. But no, seriously, you know, I am an Army veteran and I've always had a strong passionate desire to serve my country. I felt that
Todd Packer (05:49.747)
Marcia Watson (06:05.185)
Mm
Scot Loveland (06:20.031)
you know, that was just something I was called to do. Now, I did not have a long military career, but, you know, not long after that, I did some other work for the federal government and then went into the private sector. I had the opportunity to be chief of operations for a company that had a $100 million SOCOM training vehicle that I was able to be part of for quite a few years. And, you know, that really
Marcia Watson (06:42.126)
Mm
Scot Loveland (06:49.983)
That was my first entry into government contracting at that point. I was very fortunate to able to participate in a program that was both so large in scope and scale as well as so important.
And from there I went into other private sector ventures that engaged the government ecosystem in some way, or form. And then one day one of Todd's friends, my former boss Rich D 'Alessio brought forth the idea that perhaps I would enjoy advising people on engaging this ecosystem that I had the opportunity to be part of myself. And I applied and I was
Marcia Watson (07:32.92)
Mm -hmm.
Scot Loveland (07:35.053)
accepted into the Apex family, which I'm very grateful for. So yeah, my professional career has taken various twists and turns and it's been a very interesting ride. And I'll be honest with you, Marcia, I wish my position didn't exist. I wish there was no need for Apex accelerators. But the government has created such a convoluted, complex, bureaucratic
Marcia Watson (07:53.304)
Thank
Marcia Watson (07:58.264)
Yeah.
Scot Loveland (08:04.849)
systematic system for engaging their ecosystem, they make it necessary for us to be here. And the government's great for that. You'll look at tax preparation professionals. God bless them. They're a necessary industry, but if the federal tax code was a bit more simplified, we might not need them.
Marcia Watson (08:28.962)
Mm -hmm.
Scot Loveland (08:30.031)
So that's how we came into being. The government recognized in the late 1980s that they needed some sort of go -between between them and the private sector to help get small businesses in particular engaged in order to create a more robust and resilient supply chain. So here I am.
Todd Packer (08:52.908)
Hahaha!
Marcia Watson (08:53.664)
Sounds that simple, doesn't it? That's fantastic. Now my interpretive dance career did not take off either. And so, and it's interesting because, you know, we always joke, nobody really sets out to be in this industry. We kind of just end up here. And I think we all have very original origin stories in how you get into federal government contracting on one side or the other. Voluntold comes up a lot. But
Todd Packer (09:07.929)
Thanks.
Todd Packer (09:14.746)
Can I hop in real quick on one thing? So I did just want to catch one thing for our audience who may not have the opportunity to be immersed in the alphabet soup of government contract work. I just wanted to catch Scott for some of our listeners viewers that may not be familiar with SoCom. If you could just outline that and audience be ready for a podcast of acronyms.
Marcia Watson (09:24.31)
Absolutely.
Marcia Watson (09:48.398)
Truth.
Scot Loveland (09:49.925)
So Todd, thank you very much for that information. And I really, really, really do my best to keep the alphabet soup to a minimum. Cause I do recognize that that is absolutely one of the barriers to entry into government contracting is the confusing terminology and just the absolute alphabet soup of acronym. So, SOCOM is special operations command. Yeah. So, so thanks for pointing that out.
Marcia Watson (10:16.024)
Mm
Scot Loveland (10:19.691)
And APEX, so APEX, all capital letters, A -P -E -X, and that stands for nothing. It is literally not an acronym. As much as the government loves acronym, it had a perfect opportunity to have a great acronym with the all four capital letters, APEX. And to the best of my knowledge, it does not stand for anything.
Marcia Watson (10:27.862)
you
Marcia Watson (10:43.75)
Well, I think also to work with the federal government, you have to have a sense of humor, which I appreciate you both for. And I think the vet, you just have to have a healthy appreciation for irony. Because there's a lot of it for what we're experiencing. And I think that has a lot to do with this type of conversation. For the government to say we know that we've made it so hard that we need to create an entirely separate organization to help people help.
Todd Packer (10:48.111)
Ha
Marcia Watson (11:11.482)
us, right, in the most traditional way. And those are the Apex accelerators. The PTAC acronym wasn't even easier to say, so I'm glad that we're at Apex.
Todd Packer (11:12.144)
Yeah.
Scot Loveland (11:20.159)
Hey, and just a little quick little backstory on that. So we are a triple fund identity. We're funded at the federal level by the Department of Defense here in Ohio at the state level by the Ohio Department of Development. And then every center or sub center has a local host. For myself, it's Youngstown State University.
So, you know, going all the way back to 1986, we were always under a defense logistics agency underneath the Department of Defense. And that is when we were PTACs. We were Procurement Technical Assistance Centers. January of 2023, so very recently, they decided when we were moved to Department of Defense Office of Small Business, that a rebranding was in order.
And that's how that all came about.
Marcia Watson (12:15.598)
And that transition makes sense to me, not having followed the history even, but to take it out of the Defense Logistics Agency, to spell that one out, and bring it back over to Defense Small Business demonstrates the perspective that the government has, that it isn't just necessarily about the supply chain. It is about small business and our economy. And I've addressed that before, that I truly feel that...
small businesses and any federal contractor by that regard are the stabilizer for our federal economy. We've got a podcast episode of what we can expect during a federal government administration changeover. We've had the podcast episodes that we're doing this year really tie all into what this means for American citizens.
you know, what it means for us as employers and employees of the people who are working in this industry for this industry and thus therefore benefiting the federal government. So when we talk about that, what we would think should be relatively easy probably could not be more complex, right? And there is a lot of nuance and idiosyncrasies and it applies to this.
FAR, Federal Acquisition Regulation Code, but not the DFARs, the Defense Federal Acquisition. So there's a lot of things to just know and understand for how to be a federal contractor. And so before we got started, Todd had mentioned that he had known a company that tried, you know, one shot to be a federal contractor. And you don't realize, I think, unless you're really in this industry, the size and scale.
of what is truly available in federal contracting. mean, there's very few things that the federal government does not buy, exchange or sell in some form or fashion. I don't want to get through that list. But to say that there's so much potential for small businesses, even for large businesses that could be in a mentor protege relationship, individuals trying to get into the 8A program and various other benefit programs within the federal government, that navigating it is
Marcia Watson (14:25.112)
daunting, absolutely terrifying for some. So how can we go about simplifying that understanding? And I know that is a loaded question, but really to say, you know, at the very basic, what is the federal government trying to get us to do in their procurement cycles? Either one you want to take that one on?
Todd Packer (14:43.59)
I was just going to offer as a general introduction, what I found is helpful is to understand that, and I believe this is still the case, Scott, that the US government, including the Department of Defense, is the largest buyer on planet Earth.
Scot Loveland (14:51.195)
mean, Todd, go ahead, please.
Todd Packer (15:07.364)
Yeah. So to your point, Marcia, yes, the federal government will buy something that most businesses in the US sell. And the federal government is caught in some ways in ways that and is bound by regulations in ways that private industry is not. So as a small business is determining what to whom to sell to, recognizing that fundamentally,
Scot Loveland (15:10.591)
It is about $650 billion annually, give or take a couple bucks.
Marcia Watson (15:15.48)
huh.
Todd Packer (15:36.954)
the decision makers and the federal government are trying to balance the constraints mandated by Congress and by extension from the taxpayers to spend tax money wisely and well, and the demands of the government agencies, which are vast across everything from the Department of Defense, the National Institutes of Health, to the US Department of Agriculture,
and figure out ways to determine in that landscape of needs that range from long -term infrastructure needs to Federal Emergency Management Association responding to the upcoming hurricane season, how to balance that, what it takes to acquire goods and services fairly and well and as quickly as possible,
Marcia Watson (16:13.033)
Mm
Marcia Watson (16:29.346)
Okay.
Todd Packer (16:35.504)
given that the goal is to fairly evaluate all the providers of these services. And this back and forth can be frustrating as businesses begin this adventure, but I think it's important to recognize it exists like this because of some fundamental principles that we have in our country towards transparency,
towards ethical business transactions and towards sound financial and fiscal management. Sometimes the headlines don't highlight that. You don't hear a lot about government made 10 million successful transactions this year. But I think that it's really important to recognize that there are good people throughout the system that are doing the best they can to
Marcia Watson (17:27.276)
Yeah.
Todd Packer (17:32.058)
balance these requirements in order to get the best that industry can offer to meet the needs of people living in the United States and others overseas, whether it's our war fighters around the world or our astronauts in space. These are things that we do and need things that businesses can provide.
And so, you know, I offer that as kind of a very general perspective that I think it's lost when you're trying to determine what the requirements are for this offering that has to be done in 15 pages aerial 12 point font. So I wanted to kind of start off with that perspective.
Marcia Watson (18:01.87)
Thank
Marcia Watson (18:27.022)
Right, yeah.
I appreciate that because it does kind of start to seem silly sometimes, the requirements and the restrictions that the government puts in place, but understanding that it is in the interest of balance, transparency, better use of taxpayer dollars, all of those things coming together. So Scott, going to let you tag onto that question with kind of from your perspective, Todd talks about quality, efficiency, communication, relationship.
How do you see those things playing between the federal government and the contracting sectors?
Scot Loveland (19:07.071)
Well, that's a great question. Sometimes it plays just fine and sometimes it does not. That is a really complex question. I believe your original question, you asked about what is the federal government trying to achieve with the system they've set up and put into place. I believe the answer is twofold. It's at its base level.
Marcia Watson (19:27.682)
Mm -hmm.
Scot Loveland (19:36.287)
One, so back in the mid -80s when we were created, when the P -tax were created to assist small businesses entry into the supply chain, the federal government had decided they didn't like being beholden to a few large corporations.
in terms of their acquisition potential. And they wanted to create a more robust supply chain with more options. So I believe number one, they really want to create that diversity in their supply chain so they do have more options, so they can buy cheaper, so they can buy better.
Marcia Watson (20:01.112)
Mm
Scot Loveland (20:21.339)
so they can buy more innovation than the federal government even dreamed of creating internally. And I think that is their number one guiding principle. I think, you know, secondary, they do want to
try to do what's best for the American business economy. again, as Todd rightly pointed out, that they're the largest buyer and seller of goods on planet earth. So they've got more impact on that dynamic than anyone else. So they really want to prime the pump for American small business and create that thriving business sector where
you know, a small business, a three man machine shop can ostensibly compete with a Lockheed Martin. Now we get it. It's not quite a level playing field there, but at least the opportunity is there. The mechanisms are in place for everyone to be able to come to the table and contribute in some manner. Maybe not equally, but contribute nonetheless.
Marcia Watson (21:11.361)
and
Todd Packer (21:31.684)
I think it's important that it's, as Scott alluded to, the situation can shift and it's, even though it may not always be a level playing field, there are always opportunities. In the sense that a lot of large companies recognize this where they're constantly
Marcia Watson (21:34.222)
That's fantastic. Todd, did you want to add anything on that thought?
Todd Packer (21:57.87)
responding to opportunities, preparing proposals and so forth. Sometimes with staff that small businesses typically don't have access to or resources. And so small businesses may come and say, well, I'll just try one. I'll just do this couple of these and see how it goes. And sometimes when they're not awarded, when they don't get feedback, the feeling is, well, that was it. And the world is a dynamic place.
the US government responds in dynamic fashion with opportunities and forecasts and needs that are constantly changing. So yes, any particular experience may be a challenge, but I think that once an organization commits to at least trying this to a certain point, recognizing that if a deadline is missed, it's likely that that need is still there in some fashion.
Marcia Watson (22:31.95)
Thank
Todd Packer (22:57.99)
that that agency or other agencies will still have that need. Typically, if the federal government wants it once, they will need it often, or need it at least again. So kind of understanding that this is, this can take a long time. Sometimes people say, you know, sometimes between for entities new to this, 18 to 36 months can be a
Marcia Watson (23:13.858)
Mm -hmm.
Marcia Watson (23:23.81)
Mm -hmm.
Todd Packer (23:27.054)
a sales cycle. But I think that the what I want to say that Scott's comments remind me is that those comments, we all hear like, it's not level playing field as a reason to never do it at all. I think it's important to recognize that there are ways that new opportunities, new ways to collaborate with folks that can help you and your company.
Marcia Watson (23:50.956)
Mm -hmm.
Todd Packer (23:56.09)
find a way to be part of this procurement environment.
Marcia Watson (24:08.502)
Absolutely. Go ahead Scott, because that was going to be my next question. So how did the Apex accelerators come in?
Scot Loveland (24:08.799)
Yes. Well, and let me respond to a couple of things that Todd brought up there. And we talked about these barriers to entry and we all recognize the difficulty that the obstacles the federal government has put into place that need overcome in order to gain entry into the ecosystem.
You know, there's one thing when Todd mentioned that 18 to 36 month sales cycle, which I think he's pretty close on those figures. You know, when I became an Apex professional, one of the things I had asked my local colleagues was, hey, what type of feasibility studies do you have? What type of ROI studies do you have that I can provide fiscally minded business owners about what type of
man hours, what type of financial resources they're going to have to put into this endeavor. So they can do it as a cost analysis decision making tool on whether or not they even want to engage this environment. No one had one. I checked at the state level. No one had anything.
Marcia Watson (25:21.43)
Yeah.
Scot Loveland (25:24.401)
I checked at the national level with our national organization, NAPEX, no one has anything. No one's ever created any type of studies like that. And Marcia Todd, if you know of anything, I would love to hear it. Maybe that's collectively our first million dollar idea. Maybe we should just go ahead and make that come to fruition on our own.
Marcia Watson (25:38.382)
Yeah.
Scot Loveland (25:48.541)
You know, I talk to business owners in my role here at Apex, and that's what they want to know. They're like, hey, how much time and financial resources am I going to have to invest into this process till I can potentially see a certain level of success? And any information I can provide them is purely anecdotal. I don't have any hard and fast studies. And right there, there's a barrier to entry.
Marcia Watson (26:07.16)
Yeah.
Scot Loveland (26:18.487)
discouraging to business owners that have limited time and limited resources to throw at everything. So they've got to make good informed decisions on what to pursue and what not to pursue.
Marcia Watson (26:33.74)
Yeah, especially when, you know, in my business, the closest I've been able to do is through pipeline calculations for, you know, how much revenue do you want to generate in a period of time? What do you think your win rate is? And I'll tell you what you need to get there in your pipeline. That's not a science. That's a guess.
You know, and even then to a small business that has limited resources, when I say that that proposal is going to end up costing them $35 ,000 in outsourced resources or whatever that may be over that long period of time, $35 ,000, $3 ,500 to some businesses, that's a barrier to entry. Just the budget's required to have these requirements. Proposals are not easy. They take a long time. You know, we wish.
that we could spend 18 months on them. We're lucky we get 18 days sometimes. So let's switch the topic over to that a little bit. There's a lot of hurdles to overcome. There's a lot of just things to know and understand from the fundamentals of what it means to be a federal contractor. That kind of, from that Apex Accelerator perspective, what are some things that small businesses new to the market might not
completely understand or appreciate? What do you see are kind of most frequent light bulbs coming on or okay, now I'm like, what do you think small businesses don't quite know or understand that but once they do, they kind of have that leg up?
Scot Loveland (28:08.233)
Now that's a, I'm going give you two answers to that. I'm going to say one. Once they finally understand that this is not an endeavor you engage halfway. This is really an endeavor that engages proactive, aggressive approaches. If you think you're going to do this on a part -time basis, your chances for success
diminish considerably. You know, I find that my clients that have the most success have a dedicated individual, if not a dedicated team, that apply themselves on a daily basis to making their company successful in the government marketplace. So that's number one. Number two, what was number two, Marcia? I talked myself right into a full sample on that one.
Todd Packer (28:55.174)
You
Marcia Watson (29:05.036)
What other revelations? Yeah, what revelations kind of take it from the, don't think I can do this to, now I get it.
Scot Loveland (29:12.011)
yeah, yeah. Thank you very much, Marcia. I appreciate that assist. So number two, and I'm sure Keys is going to do a great job of editing that out for us. Number two, most importantly, most new businesses to the government marketplace feel that this is mostly a distant, cold, impersonal digital marketplace where...
Todd Packer (29:13.092)
Yeah
Marcia Watson (29:13.697)
Absolutely.
Scot Loveland (29:37.499)
solicitations are posted digitally and responses are posted digitally and there's no human interaction. The companies that become successful realize that this is a human interaction.
driven endeavor just as much as anything in the commercial sector, perhaps even more so. Developing those relationships with the end users, with the procurement specialists and contracting officers, with the small business liaison officers, with the prime contractors, that's so important. And once they realize the importance of that human interaction, I see companies take their
Todd Packer (30:19.92)
Cheers!
Scot Loveland (30:20.331)
game to a whole new level.
Marcia Watson (30:24.748)
Well, Todd, that's usually where you come in, right? Helping the customer companies understand what strategies and tactics they need to have to get to that level. What's your take on that?
Todd Packer (30:27.162)
Definitely. Well, I would say and I'd like to offer specifically, there seems to be a wariness on industry side around this, particularly related to misperceptions around, you know, faceless bureaucrats and so forth. So I would offer
My favorite FAR clause, my favorite Federal Acquisition Regulation clause. I think everyone should have a favorite FAR clause.
And so everyone, and you can find this at acquisition .gov. is FAR 15 .201, FAR 15 .201. Special shout out to my APMP colleague, Steve Skeldon, who, when we were co -presenting, really highlighted this as well. And that FAR clause is exchanges with industry before receipt of proposals. Now keep in mind, the FAR is the guidance that government contracting officers
Marcia Watson (31:04.942)
Well, see, you know you're a professional when you have a favorite bar clause.
Todd Packer (31:29.968)
have as they are developing procurement requirement. So this is straight from the regulations. Exchanges of information among all interested parties from the earliest identification of a requirement through receipt of proposals are encouraged.
Marcia Watson (31:42.83)
Mm
Todd Packer (31:49.926)
are encouraged. So the government is encouraging their own employees, their own contracting officers to communicate with industry. As we all know, as we try to get friends to to talk to people that they're intimidated by encouraging doesn't always like result in it becoming something useful across the board. But for industry to recognize
Marcia Watson (31:56.909)
Yeah.
Todd Packer (32:17.606)
this barrier, this perceived barrier, we can't talk to them. Yes, there are limitations in the process that need to be recognized. But there's, but the way the system works from the government side as well is we need to talk. We need to have conversations so that government understands what industry can offer and industry understands what government wants. Now,
Marcia Watson (32:43.011)
huh.
Todd Packer (32:45.792)
oftentimes it's very different languages and that takes some getting used to. My favorite example, Scott, is may appreciate this too, is the whole notion of folks new to this game in the acronym space will often ask, know, why are they called KOs if they're contracting officers? You know, and so in that case, you know, to make the distinction between the more, I guess, historically used CEO for commissioned officer,
Scot Loveland (33:10.844)
Ha ha.
Marcia Watson (33:11.053)
Mwah!
Todd Packer (33:14.224)
But the idea that even something like that, where, even how they're called seems quirky, can be enough of a barrier. I want to convey this idea that Scott said that's very important, that there are people in this, that these are conversations and relationship building amongst people. And for industry to recognize that yes, even in the federal acquisition regulation document,
Marcia Watson (33:20.834)
Mm -hmm.
Marcia Watson (33:44.686)
you.
Todd Packer (33:45.296)
Government is encouraged to work with industry. So I wanted to make that as a clear point to substantiate what Scott was talking about or to add to that.
Scot Loveland (34:02.111)
And to build on that, well, first of all, Todd, when we're offline, I'd definitely like to know upon which body part you've got your favorite Farclaws tattooed on. So one word I do want to point out in that Farclaws that you did touch on was encouraged. So I really wish it would say required, not encouraged, because...
Marcia Watson (34:20.675)
Mm
Scot Loveland (34:27.783)
you know, some federal employees are very good at understanding that they are encouraged to do so. And, but, Hey, they're human beings and every human being interacts on a different basis. Some federal government contracting professionals are not good at that interaction and communication. And they're like, look, I'm encouraged to do it, but I'm not required.
Marcia Watson (34:34.199)
Okay.
Scot Loveland (34:54.213)
So, you know, sometimes that outreach on behalf of, you know, private sector, it's not successful just because the KO will not engage. I've personally found that private businesses best friends are those small business offices that are in every federal agency. Get to know them. They exist to help you. Now, don't get me wrong. They're there to help their agency, but they're
They're there help you too. They're there to help their agency fulfill their prime contracting requirements of which I believe Todd, they're 23 % right for small businesses in 2024 and then 5 % for the other certifications like WASB, woman owned small business, VOSB, veteran owned small business, cetera, et cetera. So, they're there to help their agency make sure they're fulfilling their
Todd Packer (35:31.555)
and
Marcia Watson (35:48.844)
Mm
Scot Loveland (35:53.973)
their mandated requirements, but they're also there to help that small business to more successfully engage the agency. So they're often your best friends. They're the facilitator. They can help introduce you to the decision makers. So get to know them. know, that is something that Apex can do is help small companies develop lists of points of contact within
Todd Packer (36:20.902)
And off of that, if I may add, this is another perfect example to me of the juncture at which things can go awry. You know, because even that initial phone call, that initial email, business needs to know what to ask the small business liaison officer, the small business office. That's one of my most awkward acronyms is the Ospedoos. that?
Scot Loveland (36:24.054)
agency that they need to get a hold of.
Marcia Watson (36:28.59)
So, mm -hmm.
Marcia Watson (36:45.902)
Thank
Todd Packer (36:50.566)
as hospitals, where the Office of Small Business Development and Utilization, think, across different agencies what those offices are. But even, you know, when a small business would say, hey, how do I get a contract with your agency? You know, that can come across kind of clunky, you know, that kind of thing. know, so there's unlocking that potential, you know, with the guidance of Apex accelerators or
Marcia Watson (36:57.378)
it's a video.
Scot Loveland (36:58.183)
Well, this video is absolutely...
Marcia Watson (37:04.162)
Mm -hmm.
Todd Packer (37:19.888)
you know, the school of hard knocks, which the Apex accelerators can help reduce the impact of, can seem really odd sometimes, you know, sometimes when I work with companies and they're like, really, we have to ask about this particular needle in this particular haystack about, we noticed you were forecasting for this NAICS code in, you know, Q4 down the road, who would be, you know, you know,
Marcia Watson (37:24.707)
Thank you.
Marcia Watson (37:31.224)
Mm -hmm.
Todd Packer (37:49.082)
What are your requirements for that? But I just want to find out everything they do true. But having a specific clear request that will allow a small business liaison officer to make either make the connection most accurately or to help you come back and say, well, you know, that particular thing isn't I don't think it's the best fit, but clearly you've done your homework. You're taking this seriously. And so I will, you know, I know, know that I can talk with you.
above the level of go to the website and see our forecast or visit sam .gov. So I think that that kind of, it can seem subtle, the idea of, why can't we just take the list Apex gives and create the form email blast and send it to all the small business liaison officers and they come knocking on the door because we have the best widget or service. I think it's...
Marcia Watson (38:32.76)
Okay.
Todd Packer (38:48.73)
Yeah.
Marcia Watson (38:52.118)
Yeah, and how many other contractors are sending that same email? And I think that's it, right? There's a lot of junk mail. There's a lot of chaos. There's a lot of communications taking place, but not exchanges of information. I love and hate an RFI, a Request for Information. I think that if they are written well,
if they are responded to as if you are going to give the government a guidance of what you can offer, it's a great tool. An RFI is not a door opener, I don't think. I think that having the door open allows the RFI response to go through more cleanly. And I always liken it to responding to a sources sought notice, and they're different, right? The sources sought is, there contractors out here that do this work?
That's very simple. Yes, yes there are. We are one of them. Great. What happens after that? You wait for the RFI to come out? No, you call the contracting office or the small business office and you say, am very interested in this because I'm the contractor that does X, Y, and Z. You have to have that communication exchange. Otherwise I call it, you're just dropping your business card in the Applebee's fishbowl and hoping you get a free lunch out of the deal. It's not gonna get you anywhere. They're too busy.
Todd Packer (40:04.271)
Yeah.
Scot Loveland (40:10.591)
Ha
Marcia Watson (40:15.288)
They're too busy. They are a taxpayer funded organization, you know, and some offices in contracting are contractors, you know, so you don't know who you're going to be speaking to, but you do know that you're going to be wasting their time if you're not bringing them what you are trying to offer. And I think that's another great place where the Apex Accelerators come in is to help formulate those messages, help describe and define.
what a good message to the government is going to be, what's going to get those responsive reactions and such. But let's take that spin down to, you know, once you've got your foot in the door as a federal contractor, what are some things that the government needs out of you in order to be able to continue to offer that contract back in an option year?
you know, what are they looking for in terms of success for a small business or any contractor coming in, especially if it's your first time.
Scot Loveland (41:14.889)
No, yeah, I referenced earlier that, you know, contracting officers are human beings and some people tend to forget that. So as a human being, what they want more than anything else is for their lives to be made easier. So if you simplify their existence, if you make their job easier by doing exactly what you are contractually obligated to do when you are contractually obligated to do it,
you're going to be offered that option here. It's that simple. The more difficult you make their existence, the less likely...
that they're going to offer you that those option years. They don't want to make a change. They don't want to release that RFP again. They don't want to go through that process if they don't have to. They want their life made easier. And as long as that end user is happy with the product or the service you're providing and they give good feedback to that contracting officer, you're going to be renewed.
Todd Packer (42:13.158)
That sparks me to offer one thought along those lines, which when I work with companies, there's never any guarantee that any proposal offer will be a win per se. But my advice to them is always plan to win, meaning don't put yourself in a situation that Scott just referred to as making a contracting officer's life difficult.
If you honestly cannot deliver what the government is asking for, you know, if you're, if they, if they want 10 ,000 of something that you're only accustomed to producing 3000 of, know, unless you are certain you will have that capacity or you partner with someone to have it, don't even begin the process because the risk of winning something that you cannot deliver
Marcia Watson (43:01.612)
Mm -hmm.
Todd Packer (43:10.818)
I believe is higher than the risk of not applying, not submitting. Because if you win an award and fail to deliver on it, particularly if you fail for a reason like, we've never done that before, actually, you know, or, yeah, we've always done a piece of this. But we thought once we got it, we could, you know, let you know that we can do some of these now and some later, you know, scuts.
Marcia Watson (43:22.069)
Mm -hmm.
Marcia Watson (43:36.876)
Bye!
Todd Packer (43:39.302)
point to emphasize it a thousand times over. Do what you're contractually obligated to do. Yes, the contracts are big and thick. And yes, read through them and get legal advice if necessary, to understand what all those obligations are. Whether that is, if they say it has to meet a tolerance, you have a product that meets a tolerance. If it says you have an affirmative action policy on the books, you have an affirmative action policy on the books.
All those, you know, all of those things that, yes, are lot of work to tee up maybe before you begin some of this effort, all comes to what Scott said, which is everyone's life is easier when the companies that the government buys from does what they're contractually obligated to do. And when that doesn't happen, it makes things difficult for everyone involved.
Marcia Watson (44:14.766)
Mm -hmm.
Todd Packer (44:38.316)
If that's your first contract and you fail to deliver in a way that can't be repaired, then the barrier to reenter with that customer has just been made significantly higher than if you'd waited to build your capacity or waited for an opportunity that would be more within what you can do or built a team where you can do a part of it. Someone else could do a part of it.
Marcia Watson (44:44.759)
Yeah.
Todd Packer (45:08.056)
in the mix. But I want to mention that because people sometimes think, well, we'll do it, but we're not likely to win. Well, that's not an approach to award, or we'll do it. And yeah, by the time the government funds us will be in a good place. Well, you know, if, if you're not investing in your company's growth anyways, waiting for the government contract to get that forward, then you're not going to be able to hit the ground when that contract begins. And they begin
Marcia Watson (45:24.0)
No.
Todd Packer (45:37.151)
on a certain date and they end on a date and part of that contractual obligation is do it within that time.
Marcia Watson (45:50.952)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, there is nothing more disappointing, I think, as a person, right? As a person. When I watch a small business try something, they have no business trying. And it's not because they can't. It's because they're not ready. And there's a strong differentiation there between I think I can and I know I can.
It's not up to the government to decide that you know you can. And there's plenty of ways to write in your proposal that it appears you know you can. And I think there's a fine line there of that baseline understanding of this is a bridge too far and the entrepreneur spirit of I've got to try. And so how do you guys work with clients that kind of take that
you you miss 100 % of the shots you don't take or any of those cliched, I've got to try from the perspective of it's just not worth spending your money on. It's not worth spending your, business's time on. And I come to that in my own business with consult or clients that come to us. And I'm like, I don't want to help you with that one. You're not going to win it. Let me find out what's next on your pipeline and we'll see if we can get you there. How do you, how do you balance that between, know, the go get them entrepreneur? You don't want to crush their dreams, but also.
You know, their dreams aren't going to be a reality.
Scot Loveland (47:17.245)
Yeah, great, great question. So the primary mission of the Apex Accelerator is to ensure that clients are what we call procurement ready. So, you know, before we kick them out of the nest and let them fly on their own, we work with them to make sure they have a solid foundation of what the government considers procurement ready. You're registered in the correct databases.
You understand how to read and respond to an RFP. You've got the proper certifications. You know, things like that. You're set up in PIEE.
Marcia Watson (47:57.356)
Mm -hmm.
Scot Loveland (47:57.457)
to have your joint certification program so you can look at controlled unclassified information drawings. You know, there's so many things that go into it on the front end before you're ready to respond to RFPs or to RFQs, either one. And that's something we really try to do. So, you know, the longer I exist in the Apex family,
the more comfortable I've become with telling people no. And I don't want that to sound harsh and I don't do that to be harsh. But what I've found is that
Marcia Watson (48:29.272)
Yeah.
Scot Loveland (48:41.727)
You know, if I can be honest with clients and say, look, you're not ready for this opportunity, but you know what? We can get you there. We can help you become procurement ready. But at this point,
You're not there. You're wasting your time. You're wasting the government's time. And nothing good is going to come from this. Worst or best case scenario, what's going to happen is you're simply not going to be selected. You're not going to be selected for award. Worst case scenario, you are going to be selected for award and you're going to fail miserably. And you're only going to be given one chance to fail miserably. And then that's it. You are done in that sense.
Todd Packer (49:10.245)
Mm.
Scot Loveland (49:30.237)
Yeah, I really try to be very gently honest with people on the front end. know, one of my all time favorite quotes was by Churchill and, you know, to paraphrase that, he said that the highest form of diplomacy is being able to tell someone to go to hell in such a manner that they look forward to the journey. So, you know, that's something I've really tried to incorporate is being able
Marcia Watson (49:36.738)
Mm
Todd Packer (49:46.69)
Thank
Marcia Watson (49:53.283)
Mm -hmm.
Scot Loveland (50:00.133)
to tell companies no, you're not ready for this in such a manner that it doesn't discourage them from even trying to exist in the space.
Todd Packer (50:07.174)
Along those lines, I found is in situations that are not a clear and absolute no, if it's a not right now or not that scope version of no, that would be a company that has some past performance with a particular service or offering good. It's uncertain if they can do the volume.
Marcia Watson (50:11.338)
Yeah, absolutely.
Todd Packer (50:36.582)
that the government's requiring or there's an aspect they can do maybe seven of the 10 requirements, but three of them are, know, would be an investment in the company to make sure the product meets that kind of thing or clearly a competitor does it, they're not quite there yet. Is, I find it can be helpful to frame efforts as pilots, as a pilot initiative, a pilot program, okay.
You may not be able to meet this full scope, but what piece of it could you do? Could you do a smaller number of them? Could you do something that's could be a value to the end government customer, but it's not ready yet. Let's see if there's ways to get that funded, meaning maybe reach out to some of the folks that are have experience with this customer selling that product and see if you can.
Marcia Watson (51:17.941)
Mm
Todd Packer (51:33.602)
support the supply to that? If you can be in the language of government contracting a tier two or tier three, meaning that you are subcontracted by a prime and main contractor to support their efforts. If it's not completely ready for development, does that agency fund companies to develop technologies? Could you get funding that even though you can't sell your current product to the government today,
Marcia Watson (51:56.013)
Mm -hmm.
Todd Packer (52:04.158)
that you can develop something that will be better than what they're buying today if they help fund the development. there, and that's a way to the way to present your value to the government, for lack of a better term, inspired by a requirement, inspired by a sources audit or an RFI or an RFP or a RFQ. Back to that alphabet soup.
Marcia Watson (52:18.612)
Yeah.
Todd Packer (52:32.058)
Make sure there's a lot of R's in it. R -F -X. But that can give you a flavor for what the government is looking for. And when you scope the distance between where you are today and what the government wants, and you are still interested in getting to the space, there are other avenues to do that that can minimize your risk, even though it's not as lucrative.
Marcia Watson (52:39.372)
No, alright, thanks.
Todd Packer (53:01.072)
but we'll give you a chance to see if this world is a fit for you and potentially can give you an opportunity to partner with another company, a prime that would have other work for you, maybe even beyond the government. And that kind of thing, you know, some folks are like, but that's talking to the competition. Folks in the government space realize that today's teaming partner may be tomorrow's competition, but if there's a way that you can all work together and make this a valuable to everyone.
the team working together to deliver on the government requirements can be beneficial to all. And I think that that idea of creating a way to pilot your effort or adjust the scope so that you can see a pathway or several pathways to government contracting, it's not just that you are the sole recipient of this award. know, the mystical, I want to be the,
Marcia Watson (53:43.34)
Yeah.
Todd Packer (53:58.98)
the government's sole source for this. It takes a long path for that, yeah. That may not be out of the gate, but there's a lot that you have as options once you know what you can do and you understand how the government is looking for that.
Marcia Watson (54:02.263)
Yeah.
Marcia Watson (54:10.156)
Yeah, good luck.
Marcia Watson (54:25.676)
That's fantastic. That brings me so as you guys were talking about, winning might not be the best option. A friend of mine used to always say, you want it bad, you get it bad. And then one of my favorite things to say as a red team reviewer coming out of a technical approach is, hey, I'm glad I don't have to execute. Because there's a lot of times, they're just like, are you sure you're going to tell the government you want to do that? Because I don't think you're going to do that.
Todd Packer (54:37.382)
Thank you.
Marcia Watson (54:53.634)
you know, but it is about having balanced perception and understanding, I think, as we come to a close here, kind of understanding it's the federal government, right? It is what it is. It's a giant organization. It's, you know, not well managed in some cases, you know, not well staffed in some cases, not well funded in some cases, but there are people working there and these people are our neighbors. And so, you know, as
businesses come into this, it's not an adversarial relationship. It's not, this RFP is dumb, or the government doesn't know what they're talking about. It's not drafting questions in a way that insults the customer. It's how can I help? And the honest answer is, and if I can't help you, how can I get out of your way and really help companies understand that it's not about you. It is about your customer.
and if you can get them to buy what you're selling, that's fantastic. If you can't get them to buy what you're selling, sell it to someone else. Find your value in the market and not the other way around. So I really appreciate the perspectives that you guys brought. I'm gonna hit you with two hard -hitting questions, one for Scott and one for Todd, as we get ready to wrap up. So Scott, for you, from your experience, what is a piece of advice that you would give somebody who is
entering into federal contracting.
Scot Loveland (56:24.659)
Yeah, I would basically remind them that you don't need, at this point in your career arc, you don't need to be an expert in federal contracting. You need to be an expert in your industry. You know, when you have questions about the FAR, about the contract, have a network. Have a network of trusted sources.
that you can ask those questions. You your apex professionals, your Marshall Watsons, your Todd Packers, hey, the contracting officer that's part of the mechanism that awarded you the contract. Everyone wants you to be successful. So if you ask some well -positioned questions about the government contracting process,
People want to see you be successful and they're going to help you in that. Now, if you start asking questions about your vertical, about your industry knowledge to the same people, that's going to raise some eyebrows because that's going to show, hey, you don't understand the very thing that you are supposed to supply.
So yeah, that's probably the number one piece of advice I have is concentrate on what makes you great and find assistance for everything else.
Todd Packer (57:51.856)
Okay.
Marcia Watson (57:53.9)
Yeah, that's excellent advice. Todd, I'm going to flip the coin on you because that's what we're doing today. If you could change one thing about the federal procurement process, just one, what would it be?
Todd Packer (58:03.566)
Well, other than raising the salaries of Apex Accelerator staff, I would say...
Todd Packer (58:17.51)
I would say more opportunities for conversation, if that makes sense. know, because I'll never forget one example of I attended a conference that had some government contracting officers and proposal folks and trying to get some honest feedback. And one of the
Scot Loveland (58:17.791)
This has been a paid commercial endorsement of Apex Accelerator.
Marcia Watson (58:34.232)
Mm
Todd Packer (58:46.95)
government procurement folks said, you know, we don't understand what's happening with industry days, for example, you know, from their point of view, they're hosting an industry day to get industry to show up and help them like understand what's happening in in a particular field, help them create a better procurement requirements. And when industry shows up, nobody talks. And, you know, and it took effort for
Marcia Watson (59:03.394)
Mm
Todd Packer (59:16.784)
procurement staff, who often this is not necessarily what they're doing all the time to organize this to try to coordinate it. Industries, people in from all over the place, and no one is talking. Now, from industry, it's like, well, of course, why would we ever show our cards or something like that. And it just struck me as really poignant that, everyone is doing all this effort to try to talk to each other. And it's not working. And everyone leaves more disappointed and more disillusioned
Marcia Watson (59:21.238)
Mm -hmm.
Todd Packer (59:46.276)
and never wanting to do that again. And so I would say if there is one thing to change and to the extent that Apex Accelerators are facilitating these conversations on a micro level to maybe other opportunities to have more environments where people feel comfortable talking about their questions answered and asked and so forth so that these conversations can continue and can begin and so that
particularly with businesses that are developing really new and innovative technologies, helping people understand how that can work. So I would say I don't have something hyper -specific, other than I'm intrigued about the idea of now creating an interpretive dance of the FAR, since we have some people, that would be neat athlete.
Marcia Watson (01:00:20.96)
Yeah.
Marcia Watson (01:00:35.703)
Thank you.
Todd Packer (01:00:44.034)
I would say most broadly anything like this podcast, like conversations that encourage folks to reach out and communicate, like my thing is Public Service Recognition Week, is in May, I believe, which allows, encourages folks to recognize the hard work that public service professionals do. Any way that we can encourage these conversations, respectful, diplomatic, and clear, so that
Scot Loveland (01:00:47.67)
What?
Marcia Watson (01:01:05.475)
Mm
Marcia Watson (01:01:12.743)
yeah.
Todd Packer (01:01:14.97)
There's, I think, crafting environment like that where there'd be a healthier exchange of this can benefit everyone across industry and government.
Marcia Watson (01:01:31.605)
Yeah.
Marcia Watson (01:01:35.168)
I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. And I know I said we were going to wrap up, but I'm not going to. Because that industry day just, hit me is, you you're going to an industry day so that you can learn about the customer, but you don't want to ask any questions because you don't want to show your cards. Well, showing your cards at that point in time isn't a bad thing. You're going to meet a potential teammate or you're going to realize you're not the strongest prime in the room and you're going to want to go talk to them.
Where you're realize who that point of contact is that you've never seen or spoken to in person, you're gonna give them a handshake and then they know you're real. You know, I feel like there's so many places where we think we're at a disadvantage, but we need to spin it to find that advantage. To invest, you know, even the thousand dollars in a plane ticket and a hotel room overnight, that might be all the money you should spend on that opportunity and you're gonna take that thousand dollar lesson learned that next time.
that's not how I'm gonna do this. you know, everything is an opportunity to learn, everything is an opportunity to get better, but communicating, that's the baseline of everything, I think.
Scot Loveland (01:02:42.047)
Marcia, Todd, do you know what an industry day really is?
Marcia Watson (01:02:48.706)
Well yeah, I've to quite a few.
Scot Loveland (01:02:50.792)
Well, it's the adult version of a junior high school dance where where all the boys are lined up on one side of the gym and all the girls are lined up on.
Todd Packer (01:02:51.728)
Ha ha!
Marcia Watson (01:02:53.933)
haha
Todd Packer (01:02:59.686)
You
Scot Loveland (01:03:00.467)
the other side of the gym and there's supposed to be this great mutual mingling of personalities out in the middle somewhere, but always happens as this awkward interaction in between the two halves. And it just doesn't quite come to fruition as it was intended. So yeah, if you've ever been to a junior high school dance, that is an industry day.
Marcia Watson (01:03:13.517)
Mm -hmm.
Todd Packer (01:03:15.066)
FF
Todd Packer (01:03:23.93)
Yeah
Marcia Watson (01:03:25.248)
Yeah, and they're painful. So, all right, well, we don't want to end on that note, but that's a good visual. Let's start the Far Interpretive Dance at an industry day. Let's just bring everybody together, put them all in a circle.
Todd Packer (01:03:29.574)
you
Scot Loveland (01:03:30.173)
Ha ha!
Scot Loveland (01:03:38.069)
It's an icebreaker, an absolute icebreaker.
Marcia Watson (01:03:41.762)
Guys, I totally, totally appreciate having the time to spend and laugh with you today because first of all, if you can't laugh about this job, you're in the wrong career. But I think that it's so important the messages that you've brought. It's about relationships. It's about understanding your weaknesses. It's about being able to communicate your strengths and identifying when choices may be good or not so good for the long run success of your business.
you know, understanding where to go to get help and what to do with that help when you do get it, right? I mean, I think it's just a great way for federal government contractors to really understand what industry they're truly in. And they're in the industry of the American economy. And it is what they're, you know, what they're meant to do is bring these things into fruition to keep ourselves moving in that forward progress and be the global leader that we are.
You know, being the largest purchaser, you know, and being the largest agency of defense and all of those things are wonderful. But if the contractors providing that service have over exemplified their capabilities, we're putting ourselves at risk. And, you know, we really need to understand what that means on the global scale. A win is a win. That's fantastic. But are you really truly successful? And that's what we really want to be able to provide to these businesses as a way for them to be successful.
So I'm going to wrap up here with, know, that success in the federal government contracting does require that combination of knowledge, preparation and persistence. By understanding key steps, complying with regulations, building relationships and crafting compelling proposals, you can increase your chances of securing government contracts and growing your business. So thank you both and thank you to Visible Thread for this episode of Optimized Podcast. Thank you.
Todd Packer (01:05:28.272)
Thank you. Thank Thank you, Marcia. Thanks, Scott.
Scot Loveland (01:05:34.793)
Thank you, Marisha. Thank you, Todd.