In Episode 8 of the Optimize Podcast, we dive deep into the pervasive challenge of Imposter Syndrome and its notable impact on professionals in the GovCon industry. Host Tan Wilson, alongside seasoned expert Anatalia Macik, Director of Proposal Operations at Excella, sheds light on the ways this phenomenon hampers career progression and self-confidence within the competitive realm of government contracting. Anatalia brings her dual expertise in proposal development and business development to discuss practical strategies for navigating and overcoming the self-doubt and barriers that particularly affect women in GovCon. This episode is an invaluable resource for anyone looking to understand and conquer Imposter Syndrome, armed with real-world advice and strategies for personal and professional growth.
In Episode 8 of the Optimize Podcast, we dive deep into the pervasive challenge of Imposter Syndrome and its notable impact on professionals in the GovCon industry. Host Tan Wilson, alongside seasoned expert Anatalia Macik, Director of Proposal Operations at Excella, sheds light on the ways this phenomenon hampers career progression and self-confidence within the competitive realm of government contracting. Anatalia brings her dual expertise in proposal development and business development to discuss practical strategies for navigating and overcoming the self-doubt and barriers that particularly affect women in GovCon. This episode is an invaluable resource for anyone looking to understand and conquer Imposter Syndrome, armed with real-world advice and strategies for personal and professional growth.
How can I know that you're going above and beyond if you're not communicating that with me? And sometimes again, imposter syndrome will tell us Don't talk about those things. You're bragging or you need to be humble. Whatever the case may be for you as an individual, But it's not about, you know, looking for a pat on the back or looking for additional recognition. It is looking recognition for the work that you are doing that is above and beyond.
In the competitive realm of Govcon, battling impostor syndrome can be really difficult to ward off. Today, we tackle this subject with Anatalia, with her extensive experience in proposal development and personal insights.
Anantalia offers a unique perspective on overcoming self doubt and barriers that professionals, especially women face in the Gulf Con industry. We're honored to have Anatalia a seasoned proposal director and a business development expert with writing and editing background. That's a lot. And Anatalia's career is a testament to mastering Gov Khan's proposal world.
Marks by her contributions in team building and process efficiency.
And, Natalia, it's a pleasure to have you here today. And could you share a little bit about your journey and how you've encountered posture syndrome in your career?
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Tanya. I'm really excited to be here to talk about this subject, which has definitely been a part of probably every day of my career. I've seen it affect most of the people that I've worked with, who are women, who are women of color, it definitely affects me. My peers. I've even seen my supervisors be impacted by imposter syndrome as well as my direct reports. It's really unfortunate because it can hinder your salary to go appreciations and your career trajectory.
Yeah. It kinda creeps up everywhere. Right? So, it can be very, very stealthy.
Have how have you seen it influence professionals, particularly women, and Govcon regarding the salary negotiation and the career advancement part of it.
That is probably where I've most seen it. It's interesting because for a long time in this industry, it was male dominated. And so you see a lot of male professionals, proposal professionals who have very high salaries as well as maybe a couple decades of experience. And then you see women who come in with maybe a decade of experience, but their salary is that of maybe someone who's entry level. And it comes down to women may ask for less when they're at the negotiation table when it comes down to answer that recruiter's question of What's your salary request? And a lot of times, because we don't feel like we have the right experience or we know enough or we can do all of the things that need to be done, we minimize ourselves, and that minimizes our salary in turn.
I had a conversation with someone a little while ago, a proposal manager, and she was telling me about a conversation she had with another proposal professional, where they were talking about the fact that proposal professionals cannot make up to or over two hundred thousand a year as an employee of a company.
I can tell you with a hundred percent certainty that that is a fallacy. That is not true. But what it does come down to is women being able to negotiate for the salary that they want, understanding what salaries their industry colleagues are making, having those conversations with each other to know, hey, this is how many years of experience I have, and this is my salary versus Oh, boy, I have this many years of experience, but that is not my salary. Those conversations are really important to give us awareness and help us to learn to appreciate what we do bring to the table.
There are also times where I have interviewed women for proposal coordinator or proposal manager positions where really they should have been interviewing for my job, but because they feel like Oh, I don't know all of the things. I don't have that specific skill set or maybe I've only been doing this for, you know, five or eight years instead of ten or fifteen years. I don't qualify, but the actual tasks, the day to day activities that they're doing, the achievements that they've seen resulted from their work, those qualify them for the position beyond everything else. So it's a matter of them under standing how to value themselves, their work, and what they bring to the table.
Yeah. I think that's so critical, and I'm very critical of people coming in and saying, well, because I have this many years, I deserve this and that. And so the bottom line for me and just this is just my time Wilson perspective is that it's more important what you bring to the table and that you're able to clearly demonstrate your value. And I think you hit the nail right on the head because that that was my mantra last year, was demonstrating value over importance.
We know that the role is important. We know that what done is important. But what is your value? Right?
I think when we're so wrapped in this proposal industry, I'm focusing on proposals and working on themes and being able to demonstrate and illustrate where have you done this before, why you we don't take the same amount of time and effort to focus on ourselves. Like, why me? Why should you consider me vice as someone else And I always challenge people that you always apply and shoot for more than what the job asks for, more than what you think you're capable of. Because at the end of the day, if you push yourself to do that and to do more, you will do more.
And I think you would really kind of surprise yourself.
And what you're able to do or what your value is. So, yeah, I I hear you and it totally resonates, and I think that we need to have, a class or an episode on the art of negotiation because it's so important is to understand you know, where to come in on these negotiation because it, you know, it it becomes a a numbers and value game, you know, like at the end of the day. So, absolutely.
So speaking of which, when it comes to, like, seeking promotions and, like, bigger leadership roles and I'm one of the fortunate women in this industry who I've always had very strong, very competent, women leaders. And so I come through a very different, background and and history, and but I've heard horror stories on, you know, like the other side of not having that strong leadership.
How should, like, what approach this challenge and, like, when you're trying to face imposter syndrome.
Face the challenge of seeking a promotion or leadership roles?
While dealing with imposter syndrome. And that would be very tricky. So I have horror stories about the female is myself that, you know, we could have a whole other podcast episode about. It gets a little dark.
But what I learned from that and what I learned from the best leaders I've had as well as the not so great leaders I've had is that it does take me building confidence in myself and recognizing my own worth. And this is something that I coach to all of my, team members to anybody that I'm mentoring, you have to document what you're doing. And it's not just about your daily assignments. If you're doing what's in the job description, that's great.
But that's sort part one of moving ahead.
If you haven't gone above and beyond, if you haven't led any initiatives, you know, if there's a a challenge that comes up or a new project, a new initiative, it's so important to be the person who raises your hand and says, yes. And I can do whatever else is relevant for that role. So putting yourself out there is a huge opportunity maker for you. It's also hard at the same time because when you have that imposter syndrome, you feel like I am not the right person for this. I don't know enough to be able to leave this. How can I do that? You have to sort of retrain your brain because the more often you raise your hand, the more often you put yourself out there, the more you get comfortable with it, the more you start to look back and say, okay, I face something like this before, and this is what I did to be successful.
Or as for help from those who do have more experience than you do, So put yourself out there, acknowledge I can do eighty percent of this, and I'm gonna need help with this twenty percent over here. That's okay. No one has all of the answers. No one can answer every single issue every single time. So asking for help is critical.
And when you're doing these things throughout the year, you want to document them, document the feedback that you receive, and make sure that you're not just keeping that to yourself, but you're sharing it with your leadership.
So often, I've gone into performance assessments of my direct report And I've said, okay. You're doing a great job. You're doing everything that's expected of you. You're meeting the, results that we want to see. You're doing exactly what you're office. And they'll say, oh, but I also did all these other things.
Oh, okay. Well, where is where where is that stuff? I didn't know. That you were doing that.
You didn't communicate it with me during our one on ones. You didn't document it in your performance assessment, and it's also not something that I'm aware of. So how can I know that you're going above and beyond if you're not communicating that with me? And Sometimes again, imposter syndrome will tell us, don't talk about those things.
You're bragging or you need to be humble, whatever the case may be for you as an individual. But it's not about, you know, looking for a pat on the back or looking for additional recognition.
It is looking for recognition for the work that you are doing that is above and beyond and not taking yourself for granted not taking your work for granted.
It's so hard to do that, especially as women, especially as women of color. We're so often taught to minimize ourselves And so day to day in the workplace, we tend to minimize the work, the contribution that we bring.
Another key point, if you're looking for a promotion, look at the job levels that you wanna go to. If your company has documented, you know, career level one, two, three, let's say you're at a two, you wanna move to a three. Look at what the responsibilities are for that career level three and document where you are already doing those responsibilities.
And if there are areas where you haven't met those responsibilities yet, set goals for yourself and talk to your leadership about it so that you can work towards that next level. And understand that it might not happen in a year. It might take two or three years to reach all of those objectives. But you know that you have a plan, and your leadership knows that you have a plan, and they're going to support you for that. If you work at a company where they don't have those career levels mapped out, you can look at the job descriptions for other positions that are above or maybe you wanna make a lateral move. Look at those job descriptions as well and document Again, what you're already doing and set goals for where you need to move forward.
Communication is so key. Right? Communication at all different levels. And you make a really good point about the documentation part because memories are short. We forget things.
We, you know, like, We get busy doing stuff, and you just kind of do things.
But just like in a proposal, You should do an after action. You should do a debrief on that proposal, not only for the organization, but do it personally, you know, for yourself.
My, you know, my perspective on this, and I agree with everything that you say. I think the other important thing too, and maybe it's because I'm a woman of a certain age now, and so I look at my career in a very different kind of way.
I've got no one to impress I've got no ladder to climb. I, you know, I'm just doing this because I just enjoy the heck out of what I do. However, comma, there was a time in my life where, yes, I wanted to go from a one, and I also and a skipper. So I go from, like, a one to a three.
So that was my whole career progression. But Sharing stories about what you've done or sharing examples of where you help to make an improvement or to offer value, in the process or or maybe you put yourself out there and you did something that might have been a little Kiki. I'm always doing things that are going against the grain. I'm always doing things in a very unique kind of way. And now I have this reputation of someone who thinks really, really outside the box. Like, I'm creating my own entire little box with more than four sides or whatever sides there are to a box. And, That's really icing, not only empowering for yourself, and it builds confidence for yourself because the more speak about different things that you've tried and done and maybe failed.
It also sets a really good example for those around you. And so I I think it's really important for you to kind of share your missteps or share your excesses so that others can see it's okay. You survived.
You know, what's the I think that's the biggest fear about people who really want to try new things or to kind of put their neck out there or to put, you know, whatever they think, you know, like, when you're younger, everything seems to be like a life and death type of sit. It's not. You'll be okay. Like I tell my son, he's thirteen.
It's alright. Go out there. You don't have to always be the best. You don't always have to know.
But if you put yourself out there, at least now you know, where you're falling short, where you need to improve, what you need to kind of work on. And the other thing too about contributing especially when you're in a room of, you know, incredibly smart people. Come on. Look.
As proposal professionals, we are rarely the smartest on the broom. That's okay. Right? But it's also good for us to ask those critical questions.
The why? The, you know, like explain this to me. Or I don't know the answer. That's the biggest thing too is, you know, I think we put so much pressure on ourselves.
Being a proposal manager that it's starts in stock with us. There's so much just professional pressures of the job itself that we don't take a moment and say, you know, I don't know that answer or I'm not quite sure. Let's figure it out. Or I don't know now, but that's a really great question.
I'll get back to you. I think people respect you a lot more when you're really kind of frank and candid about that. And no one's gonna really think less of you. If you say that, I would think less of you.
If you tried the b s an an answer to me, because someone in the room is ultimately going to be able to call you on that.
So, yeah, I think I think communications and kind of putting yourself out there is like, you know, really, really important to kind of help to gradually overcome some of these complexes that we have. So let's dive deeper a little bit into imposter syndrome and its impact in the Gulf Pine industry itself. So Anatala, can you share your thoughts on how individuals can effectively overcome this and and really kind of thrive.
Yeah. And it goes back to what you were just saying about asking those questions. Right? Ask the questions of those around you, but also be curious about yourself.
So I would start by understanding where does this impostor syndrome, like, where did it initiate? Why do you feel the way that you do And is what you're thinking true? So when you walk into a room and feel like, I don't know if I belong here. Why do you think that way?
What is it that's causing you to feel that way?
A lot of times as proposal professionals we're not the smartest person in the room, and and we shouldn't be. Right? There are so many smeebs that we need to be talking to engineers, PhDs. Right?
But when it comes to the proposal, we are the expert there. We're the one driving that process. And so it's very easy to become intimidated by all of the the big brains in the room, especially I've worked with a lot of PhDs. They do love their dissertations.
So it's to become overwhelming with you. So oh, there you go.
You're familiar with that. I'm very familiar with that.
So it becomes very easy for us to doubt ourselves to think I don't know nearly as much as this person. How can I tell them how to put together a proposal they seem to know so much?
Something, someone once told me this when I was dealing with an issuer, I was thinking, wow, this person is so smart. They know so much. A friend of mine said, they know a lot about that topic.
That's it.
And it made me realize, ah, we all have our specialties.
I am the expert in the proposal, This person's the expert and whatever the the technology or the solution may be, but we all have something to bring. That's valuable. And if we don't communicate, if we don't work together, we're not going to be successful.
Early in my career, I often kept my mouth shut because I thought of I'm I'm young. I'm a minority. I'm a female. I'm not gonna tell these guys how to do their job.
Are you kidding me? They've been doing this for longer than I've been alive, right, when I first started. And that was that was wrong. That was so wrong of me because there were I could see mistakes being made, and I knew it from a proposal perspective that we needed to do things differently, but I didn't speak up.
And oftentimes when that happened, we didn't win the proposal. We lost because of those mistakes that I saw and didn't say anything about.
So learning to understand why you think the way that you do and then questioning it and realizing your value, figuring out what it is that you bring that is different and and working through your insecurities.
That's really what it comes down to. I don't have a degree. I didn't graduate from college. I tried two times and dropped out both times.
And so for me, that had been a really big source of insecurity, especially through the early part of my career. Again, walk talking with all of the very intelligent sneeze. It's like, oh, I I didn't even graduate college. What can I say to these people?
But I realized I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to proposals because that is my area of expertise and that is where I can bring value. So you have to figure out what's the sort of deep point inside of you that's causing those insecurities and work through that. Yeah.
I think it brought up a really sticky subject with me is this this attitude that we as a society have in the value we place on degrees and formal education.
I am a huge advocate of on the job training and experience training.
And so I will always advocate if it's in my client's best interest to swap educational degree training in lieu of years of experience.
Because to me, that speaks larger volumes. I've I've worked with some people who have had degrees and they've got credentials and they've got you know, the APMP certifications and stuff like that. They couldn't manage their way outside of a cardboard box. The same cardboard box that I've already built. Right? And and so it like, people look great on paper.
And when you put them into the pressure cooker, it's really all about the intangible skills that I don't think that any classroom can really kind of teach you.
Years of experience, will teach you.
Getting, you know, having a proposal go sideways will teach you that. And so I think there's teaching moments every single time that something kinda goes wrong. And so when you try to be this perfectionist, and you try to ward off and be perfect each time, you're really kind of failing yourself from like critical moments of really kind of learning because when you haven't experienced that and you experience that for the first time. Would you rather experience, like, a color team that goes bad or a part of production that goes wrong right on the most critical, biggest high profile, you know, bid.
And and so I think, you know, a lot of that is really kind of important.
And you're right. You know, I I have a bachelor's. My sister has got degrees from Harvard and all this other stuff and you know, I look at what she's done and what I've done. And again, I don't wanna be compared, but we're siblings. We can't help but, you know, like, do that.
But I like to think that I've done so much with my own bachelor's, but at the same time, I've worked with some incredibly gifted, gifted people.
In our industry who have never gotten certifications, who have never gone on, who could teach classes and dance around people, you know, who who do do that. So I don't think there's anything that can really substitute, real hands on real world live experience. So I'm I'm with you on that one. So that's, you know, I I love your perspective on this, and you and I are singing Kumbaya all the time, which is why I love speaking with you. But, you know, you, you've worked for a lot of different organizations, but, you know, how can an organization foster an environment that kinda help to, like, mitigate, you know, some of this, especially among, young employees and and young female employees.
That's a great question and an important question because organizations do play such a huge and crucial role to be able to create a culture of open, transparent communication, encouragement, an environment where asking for help is okay, where making mistakes is okay as long as you learn from those mistakes is absolutely critical.
When I'm working with a team and we have maybe a new initiative or a challenge has come up that we need to solve Number one, as the leader of the team, I don't make it my sole responsibility to solve that problem. I bring my team in so because They have other ideas, other perspectives. And again, I don't know everything, and I recognize that. So getting that feedback, letting them provide answers, provide ideas will help them to learn and to grow in their career as well.
But what I tell them is be curious and play. Let's play. Let's figure it out. Let's experiment.
Let's try different things. If it works, Great. We've solved it. If it doesn't work, we'll pivot. We'll try something else. Having that type of an environment in your organization is so crucial to job satisfaction to career growth, learning, all of those things. And if you couple that with a mentoring program, you've got a phenomenal environment for people to work in.
I've heard companies mention psychological safety any number of times. But I haven't always seen it actually implemented at those same companies. So rather than using it as a buzzword, if you actually create safe places to fail, to experiment, and to grow, your employees aren't going stagnate in their fields. They're not going to be, you know, what I call proposal robots where this is what I do because that's how I do it, and I'm always done it. They're gonna become more creative, and they're gonna stay with your company for a lot longer. So at the end of the day, it's a benefit not just to the staff, but also to the corporation.
Yeah. I think it's, going back to, like, the mentoring that that really hits it with me. And I think it's really critical for leaders within the organization, not only like you've seen it kinda creating, like, a fun, safe space to kind of experiment and and everything like that. But also to have the leaders model that too.
Going back to, you know, being vulnerable yourself showing the process of experimenting and doing different things. And we all kind of do in model ways that suit our, you know, suit our personalities With me, I like to go to self deprecating humor. You know, I will joke and poke fun of myself for, you know, one of the common things that I like to say is that You know, I'm ESL. So I might say this the wrong kind of way because English is my second language.
And that immediately puts people See, you laugh. Like, it immediately puts people at ease. Right? A person with ESL is hosting her own podcast right now.
How funny is that? But, I I think it's it's I think it's important to kind of bring down the tension sometimes, within an organization that People can see leaders are human. Leaders make mistakes. Leaders within organizations don't always get it right.
You know, like the first, you know, the first time, but being able to kind of experiment and and and work through collectively, which is I think the the collaboration part of it with our staff kinda get buy in on what is it that they wanna see, what is it that they wanna do? How can you kind of encourage that? But I also wanna charge the managers out there too is to really kind of look and evaluate who are your hidden gems and and be able to try to, like, nurture and bring out, the goodness in each of your staff because it may be a different way depending upon who they are and, you know, what challenges they they might have.
So that whole one size fits all may not be, you know, like the best approach for, for that person. So let's start a little deeper here.
In into like this this topping discussion that we have. So, like, navigating through the complexities of Govcon and impostor syndrome can be really, really daunting from from all aspects. So, Anatalia, how would you advise our listeners to build some resiliency against the syndrome and advance confidently as their careers progress.
So before I answer the question, I do wanna bring up a point that you you've mentioned ESL, speakers I so admire people who English is their second or third or fourth language, and a lot of times could be where an imposter syndrome thing kind of crops up. Like, I don't speak the language. How do I communicate well? I should just, you know, be quiet and sit over here.
But, really, people who speak multiple languages should be admired because they are capable of something that I definitely cannot do. And I So my father spoke Spanish and English. He never taught us how to speak Spanish, and I have such trouble trying to learn another language. So when I see someone who not only speaks a second, third, fourth language, it is something to be admired.
The amount of intelligence hard work and perseverance to be able to learn multiple language, languages is incredible. And that's something where it's a huge value. And people should highlight that more in their careers, in their resumes, in what they bring to the table.
So I just had to to go on that little spiel for a second.
Thanks a little bit.
But going back to your question, you know, it's really important to know who you are acknowledge your strengths, acknowledge your weaknesses, and don't be afraid to admit to mistakes. Like, we were talking about earlier. I'm right now in the process of hiring. And when I'm interviewing people, I always ask the same question. What's the biggest mistake that you've made where you were fully responsible and you just messed up. It is so astounding to me how many people look at me and say, I don't make mistakes.
Wow. Really? They will say they've never had a compliance issue. They've never missed a deadline.
All of these amazing things they check less. They do all of these things. They're perfect.
Absolutely perfect.
And I think, well, maybe you should be interviewing me because I make mistakes all the time. I've had compliance issues. I've had, missed deadlines. I've definitely made mistakes. I I make them all the time. And that goes back as well to what you're talking about leaders.
So it's really important to acknowledge the mistakes whether you're a leader or whether you're an independent contributor, that's how you learn how to do better. The mistakes that I've made only made me better in my career. They've only helped me to progress further in my career. So that's really the first step is looking in Again, being curious about yourself and understanding what it is that you're good at, where do you have areas for improvement, and then do the work for those areas of improvement.
Continuous learning is critical. Continuous improvement. That's a part of basically how I live my life as well as how I manage my teams. And getting feedback is so crucial as well, because a lot of times, we're in our own heads.
We think we know. We think we don't know. Right? And we would be very surprised to hear what other people have to say about the work that we're doing.
And, again, the value that we bring So looking for feedback, having that mentor to brainstorm with, to talk through challenges with, and to get a fresh perspective.
Even if it's just a confidant for me, I speak with my husband all the time about, oh, I said this weird thing, or I didn't do this. Right? And he gives me a different expective on it every single time, which, at the end of the day, always benefits me and makes me think about things differently and gets me out of my own head.
Sharing your challenges, sharing your experiences with your peers too. They might have solutions, or they might be dealing with a similar problem, and you guys can help each other. So, again, you're not alone.
Yeah. I think it's always good to find like a buddy.
I I've got several of those where I will contact them and say, talk me off the ledge here. I'm having a ledge moment.
Or are you, you know, because a lot of times, there are some proposals there that we all kinda work on together.
And I'll contact certain people and say, I cannot not architect by way around these set of requirements. Are you having the same challenges? Because you know if you're having them, someone else is having them too. So And it's not that we're sharing proprietary or sensitive, you know, type of information.
It's it's compliance for god's sake. Right? It's it's it's basically an interpretation. So even the best of us out there or those of us who have been doing it for twenty some plus years still need a sounding board.
So that that part really never ever goes away. And, unfortunately, that part in our mind or you know, residing in our head sometimes can be a really, really dark place.
It can be very self defeating place to kind of be. Regardless of really, you know, what age you're at or where you are in your in your career progression. So I'm going on the record here right now. Ton suffers from hipsters syndrome at times. So, it it takes a lot to get out of this head.
So as we wrap up in Natalia, what key strategies would you recommend to our listeners for overcoming impostor syndrome?
So There are a number of things that we can do from focusing on personal development so that you feel like you do have those qualifications, that skill sets, and and you're better equipped to come to the table and have those conversations.
Again, look for a mentor or someone that you can brainstorm with and work through some of your insecurities with and embrace your challenges. Those are always opportunities to grow. There are times where, you know, we're faced with something new, something different and immediately feel like I'm not up for this. I don't have what it takes.
Change that thought process. It does take time to work through the sort of inner voice of imposter syndrome constantly telling us nope. Nope. Nope.
Be quiet. You don't know. You're not good enough. So we have to actively work against that and actively work to think more positively about ourselves.
Focus on the strengths that you bring, document those strengths and share them with others. We're all different people. We all bring something different and unique to the table, and that is so valuable by acknowledging that you face this issue. I face this issue even coming on this podcast today to talk with you.
I was like, am I really capable of talking about imposter syndrome?
Said I'm having impostor syndrome about impostor. It's still it's so silly. So you have to acknowledge it and then talk your way out of it. The way you talk yourself into feeling bad, talk yourself out of that as well and make it a daily practice. If it's a matter of writing down mantras to motivate yourself, put it on your phone, send yourself an alert every day that says, I am good enough. Right? Whatever it takes to help break you out of this, you know, sort of cycle of negative self talk.
Yeah.
Well, those are those are really, really great points. And you've given me, like, a fantastic idea as we talk about some key takeaways here because there are so many conversation topics and, the strategies for imposter syndrome that I love to kinda like wrap up for our listeners, but I think self awareness and being able to think and convince yourself out of this I've got these cards.
I think that it's called, they're the rated like NC seventeen type of, you know, F bomb type of cards for motivation.
I think maybe I need to come up with some motivational cars for proposals, or at least the Govcon industry. So I'm going on the record here today. Stay tuned. Additional swag from John, cards of affirmation.
Govcon cards of affirmation.
Because I love it. We need that. You we need to kind of practice that. Right?
Just just as it's so easy for our brains to talk us into something or out of something. We need to kind of see, be validated and, experience what it feels like, to be on the other side of that. And I think as you do that and as you put yourself out there and you see the results, it kind of builds and builds and builds. It is not something obviously that is going to happen overnight.
And I think it's unrealistic for us to, you know, consider that. But mentorship too, finding a really good person to model yourself.
Find someone on LinkedIn, follow them, what they're talking about, see what they're doing. Pick up the phone. I've had people who just reach out to me and say, I love the things that you talk about.
Are a lot of times if I'm working on a proposal and, they had a great experience they'll contact me and be like, Hey, I worked with you on this proposal.
I really loved what you did. Or, you know, tell me a little bit more I will take calls any day, anytime a night, text, LinkedIn, whatever it is. I'm more than happy to talk about that because I think it's really important for kind of share things and I'll be very frank. I think that's what, you know, people expect from me is that I will be very candid and unfiltered.
About the challenges, and I'll make no bones about it. But I'll at least give you a way to solve it or I'll tell you how I approached it or what my strategy was for either maybe trying to mitigate it next time or minimize the impacts, you know, because There are certain things that are in your control, and there's a lot more things that are outside of your control. So knowing the two and giving yourself some grace and some slack, for realizing that there's there's gonna be a lot of things, right, that are out of your control.
Yeah. I've had people reach out to me from India, from Europe from all over the US to say, hey, how do I get into the proposal industry? Or I'm in the proposal industry, but I need to make it to the next career level, what do you recommend, or, you know, how do I get out to my clients, by any number of questions, and having people who are more senior in the proposal industry be accessible like that, I think is so critical to the development of the proposal industry as a whole. I have, I remember when I got started that didn't exist.
There weren't those proposal sort of guides, experts, mentors that you could go to. There weren't even proposal directors or proposal VP. So we've definitely evolved in making ourselves available also provides at least for me career fulfillment and a different way that I never experienced before.
Yeah. It's actually viewed as a career now and not just a psi type of function within an organization, which I think is really important. And I think associations like APMP NCMA and and other, you know, other industry leaders too have really kind of forged through a wonderful path.
And have developed a progression and and showing you how you can progress.
They're college courses now, which There were never much courses before. It's like, wow. And I I guess I can't, you know, use that whole saying, well, no one goes to college or graduates from college. Wanting to be a proposal professional because, well, that's kinda tried. Of course, some people do. So, but but in any case, you know, like, as we end today's conversation, wanna thank you for coming here and just talking with me and providing your invaluable insights and your real world experiences, and strategies or how to overcome this.
To our listeners, remember, you know, this is a journey. It's ongoing.
We battle it every day. But each step takes you closer towards, you know, realizing what your true potential is, what your true goals you know, like might be. So, you know, not only embrace your strengths, but also embrace all of your little quirks and idiosyncrasies and, you know, shortcomings and and get support where you need to get support. But, you know, don't underestimate your value or your, you know, your your contributions to this industry because there's plenty of other people you know, who obviously will, in this industry.
So, this is gonna be our last episode for the optimized podcast. So I'm really excited to kinda close it out with a bang gear on a really topic that personally is something that is close and dear to my heart. And, like, kinda wanna also thank visible thread for their support. Anatalia and I have been involved with visible thread for for years, and they're such a wonderful company who is is really out there for thought leadership and to really help professionals in our industry be better and and and provide a a tool and a service that actually helps our job be a little easier.
Sometimes too. So I wanna thank them for their support and and unyielding faith in me, but interesting me in providing them and their listener with some interesting topics, sometimes controversial, sometimes not.
And all of our interesting guests just like yourself. So to wrap folks. And so until next time, keep pushing boundaries and believing in your capabilities and keep sharing sipping and strategizing and remember that the secret ingredient for success is genuine connections and a glass of bourbon infused with a generous splash of wit.