Join Matt Light and Michael Chacko as they explore how organisations can engage the NextGen bidder, build stronger career pathways, and prepare the profession for the future.
What does the next generation of bid professionals want from the industry and what can the industry learn from them?
In this episode of the Optimize Podcast, Matt Light is joined by Michael Chacko, Technical Bid Writer at Tecknuovo and APMP Practitioner, to discuss attracting, developing, and retaining the next generation of bid and proposal professionals.
Drawing on his experience entering the profession directly from university and working across both multinational organisations and SMEs, Michael shares insights into career development, strategic bidding, stakeholder engagement, executive sponsorship, and the growing role of AI in the profession.
00:00 – Introduction and welcome
03:45 – Michael's journey into bidding straight from university
07:00 – Why bidding became a career choice
10:00 – Explaining the bidding profession to others
12:30 – Moving from operational support to strategic influence
18:00 – Building collaboration with Subject Matter Experts (SMEs)
25:00 – Creating change and improving bid culture
29:00 – Attracting and engaging the next generation of bidders
34:00 – Mentorship, career progression, and developing talent
38:00 – AI, innovation, and the future of bidding
43:00 – Quick-fire questions and key takeaways
✔ Think strategically, regardless of your role or title
✔ Build strong relationships across the business
✔ Create clear pathways for developing bid talent
✔ Encourage curiosity, innovation, and knowledge sharing
✔ Embrace AI as a tool to support—not replace—professional expertise
Michael Chacko is a Technical Bid Writer at Tecknuovo and an APMP Practitioner-certified professional. Passionate about strategic bidding, collaboration, and professional development, Michael is committed to helping shape the future of the bid and proposal profession.
Follow Michael Chacko and Matt Light on LinkedIn for more insights on bidding, proposal management, and professional development.
[00:01.8]
Welcome to the Optimize podcast brought to you by Visible Thread. The Optimize podcast is your go to source for expert insights on bidding, business development, proposal management and work winning strategy. Each series is hosted by an expert in the field, bringing their unique experience and perspectives to every episode.
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We're excited to welcome Matt Light as the host of this series. With 15 years experience across every bidding role, from bid writer to bid director, Matt has built and led high performing commercial teams shaping work winning strategies for healthcare and logistics businesses across the UK and Europe and delivering an 80% plus win rate in public and private sector bids.
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An active member of APNP UK Chapter Deputy CEO 40 under 40 awardee and one of the inaugural cohort of the Leadership Academy, Matt is committed to using his spare time to elevate the bidding profession, helping reframe it as a high value strategic discipline recognized for supporting organizations to unlock commercial value and growth.
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Now he's bringing that experience to the podcast, exploring the people, strategies and ideas shaping the future of bidding and how organizations can turn work winning into true strategic advantage. If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe wherever you're listening.
[01:35.7]
Now, let's hear from Matt. Hi everyone, welcome to the Optimize podcast brought to you by Visible Thread. I'm Matt Light and today I'm joined by Michael Chacko from Tecknuovo.
[01:51.2]
He's the technical bid writer there and we're going to be talking about making bidding more strategic as a way to help your self development, the development of your business and the development of the future profession of bidding.
[02:07.0]
Michael, how are you doing? Very well, thanks. Hi Matt, thanks for having me on. Yeah, excited to be here. Excited to be here. Excited to have you. Thanks for being here. So Michael's an APMP practitioner certified member, who combines precision, flexibility and collaboration to make technical concepts clear and engaging.
[02:29.9]
And what's great about having him on today is actually might say he's a bit of a natural at social media. Not only did he oversee his university's School of Politics social media platforms, this also isn't the first podcast he's been on.
[02:46.9]
I'm aware that you've done one Michael, a few years ago, as part of your work experience, which was a four parter on the history of rap, which I still need to go and find and listen to because that sounds incredible. Indeed.
[03:02.4]
I mean 10 years ago now, but that was in an actual physical studio, all the old school equipment there. But yeah, four parts do check out. I can't I can't promise that it's going to be as smooth and slick as this one, but, yeah, I would say not exactly, a professional, but a bit of experience.
[03:19.6]
Yeah, for sure. Well, if it's. It's a good grounding. Right. So at least you know what we're, what we're in for here. Exactly. Hopefully we have some background music like the last one. Try and squeeze some of that in. I don't think we can promise the intro or outro music's rap though. That's all right.
[03:36.9]
That's all right. We can work with it. We can work with it. Brilliant. So look, Michael, as I said, we're going to talk a little bit about what you've seen in, in your career so far in Bidding and how you think that that can link into future generations of the profession, perhaps in a little bit more of an intentional way.
[04:03.3]
And what, what I first noticed actually from your career about that is you came into Bidding straight from university in your academic studies. Yeah, yeah. And that's quite unusual, I think, in the profession.
[04:20.9]
So I'd love to know, was that a planned move? Was that intentional? Talk us through how you came into it. Well, I wish there was some glamorous story, but to, to, to lay it all out for you. I essentially tried to figure out what I was, what I knew I was good at, what I was best at.
[04:39.8]
And throughout A levels I was doing a lot of essay heavy subjects like English literature, philosophy, that kind of thing. And I knew that I had a bit of a knack for writing things down on a page, consolidating sort of information and really getting my point across in the way that I think that the examiners or, you know, markers or teachers are really going to want to hear it.
[04:59.2]
And that kind of translated into uni doing a master's in political science that was extremely essay based, including, my dissertation, which was around 25,000 words. And it got to the stage where lots of my friends were complaining about having to sit down and write so much. And I was like, you know what?
[05:15.9]
It's not that bad for me. I'm kind of enjoying it, dare I say it. So, yeah, dissertation really, really complex, really long got first in that. And I was like, hold on a. How can I, you know, use my skills that I know that I'm perhaps a little bit above average at and translate that into something that I can, you know, work and make Build a career out of?
[05:37.0]
So I was living at home at the Time in Hampshire and I was just Googling, you know, writing jobs, sort of jobs that involve writing. I was looking at like sales and a lot of my friends were following sort of more traditional paths like law consultancy, accountancy. And I was really thinking, I didn't really, really want to go down that path of what everyone else was doing really.
[05:56.3]
So I wanted to be a bit of an outlier from the beginning. Maybe a bit of a, I say a bit of a self proclaimed maverick, but wouldn't say it's that, that glamorous. But yeah, as I was doing my, my Googling and my researching, I saw that there was a bid writer job at Delarue, which was in Basings though, which is quite close to where I was currently residing at.
[06:13.4]
So it was a mixture of geographic sort of, you know, it was easy for me to get there and the fact that Delarue was you know, quite a historic company, quite well known in certain circles. So when I applied it was, you know, it wasn't a graduate role or anything like that. I knew that they needed someone who was sort of keen to learn, who was ready to sort of hit the ground running and contribute to the team asap and obviously went in for a few interviews.
[06:35.8]
I wasn't expecting to get the role but I think they took a bit of a chance on me. And I think everyone kind of needs that first. Sort of like, okay, you know, we see potential in you. We know that you can do the fundamentals of the writing of the consolidation of the research, of the analysis. And yeah, I was lucky enough to get the role goal and kind of all from there really.
[06:55.9]
Four years now. So not that, not that experience. But what I would say is that in those four years I've seen a lot of different ways and approaches to bidding and different ways and approaches to businesses. And I think that's a good insight that hopefully will translate in this discussion.
[07:13.1]
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm really looking forward to getting into some of that with you and you sharing your insights around that. So great story of how you got into the profession. How quickly did you realize that bidding was for you?
[07:31.4]
What would you say was the kind of clinch moment in your early career where you went, yeah, I'm all in on this. I think for me it was a mixture of things. I really liked the idea of having a deadline driven environment and also high stakes in the sense that we're dealing with.
[07:50.9]
At my first company, Delaru, it was, it was currency printing firm. So we were Dealing with banknotes for countries in Africa, countries in like, for example, Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabian Monetary Authority. And I was like, hold on a second. Like, this is extraordinary in the sense that I would never be able to get exposure to this kind of thing in the first place.
[08:08.1]
And a lot of the creative writing elements of it was me sort of discussing why our designs would be better than anyone else's. And I was looking at these beautiful paintings and drawings that they were doing down in the, sort of like, design section of the business. And I was like, hold on a sec.
[08:23.5]
Like, I love selling this product and I like being in an environment where everyone really wants to sort of like, win together. And, I think that was the sort of clincher for me. It was like, okay, I know that this might not be my forever job, but the fundamentals of working towards a deadline, making sure that everything's technically accurate, precise.
[08:46.3]
Back then as well, we were doing actual physical. I, say back then, I'm sure you've had a similar experience doing physical beds. So we were, you know, getting really nice folders in designing those. Actually, like, we had to have like three or four copies as well. So we're making sure these, like, 250 page documents matched exactly to the others.
[09:05.6]
And I was like, yeah, this is, this is something that feels old school, but at the same time feels fresh. And I knew that the skills that I learned there would translate very well into, sort of bidding elsewhere. So go for it. I, I can tell you now, I remember the days of still standing by the printer, waiting for, waiting for your 250 page bid to come out and then having to hole punch the whole thing. Yeah.
[09:30.8]
And then it was like, oh, you've done 100 pages of the wrong paper, it has to be said. Like, and then it's like nightmare. But, no, it's good. And I feel like that's maybe a little bit different now to younger people coming into the profession. A lot of it feels a lot computer heavy.
[09:46.9]
You know, you're working on these Word documents, but sometimes it's good to just go back to basics and like, this is literally a bid that we are handing in to a customer. So it's, it's good to get grounded and really feel that physical aspect of it as well. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, look, I don't know about you.
[10:05.2]
You've been in bidding, a little while shorter than, than I have, been a little bit more gray and old around the edges. I still find it challenging sometimes to Explain to, you know, even like close friends and family, what exactly this job is about. Definitely.
[10:31.1]
Do, do you find that or do you find now after four or five years, it's easier to explain it than when you first started out. I think it's definitely one of the toughest parts of the profession, having that almost taboo feeling about explaining what you do.
[10:51.3]
And I don't think that's fair at all. I think there's a lot of niche professions that are maybe, treated with a little bit more reverence than bidding is. And especially when it gets to the stage where it's like, oh, okay, you're a bid writer, so that means that you just write all the time or you know, that's just your day to day and it's a bit, you don't want to be having to caveat your job role in that respect.
[11:15.7]
So I think, yeah, at first it was like, hold on a sec, what's that? But as you kind of explain, you know, you're part of sales, you're a core part of sales enablement. You're working really closely with marketing, with commercial, directly with the sales team. And for example, now it's working really directly with the md, like getting that executive sponsorship and you got so much visibility.
[11:34.9]
So, yeah, I think, I think definitely it's something that we have to tackle as a profession, as professionals in the industry. I think we need to be shouting about our role more and I think that comes with confidence in the role and sort of being proud of the stuff that we're doing. But yeah, it's definitely still something that we have to tackle and it is something that you do have to explain.
[11:55.7]
Yeah, I don't find it ever gets any easier, but we'll see how things go as, the career sort of the, profession progresses. We'll get there. Yeah, no, and there's a lot of good work being done.
[12:12.8]
I know within APNP and I know Visible thread are doing a lot of good stuff to get professionals in the industry together and really emphasizing that idea of, okay, yeah, we might be in different companies, but we're all doing the same thing, we all are after the same objectives and I think that's a big part of that. Yeah, we have a really good community, right, don't we, as a profession?
[12:30.7]
And that really helps. Yeah, certainly agree with. So look, we're going to talk about, a couple of things right now. We're going to talk about a little bit more about that move and that shift of getting bidding to be seen as more strategic, in any organization, big or small.
[12:56.4]
We're going to talk about how we can positively develop internal collaboration on bids and what good looks like. And then I'd really love to talk a little bit more, particularly from your experience, about what we can give to new entrants into the profession and to be honest, perhaps what they can teach us as well. Definitely.
[13:18.8]
So let's talk about the strategic piece first. And I just want to touch on the fact that you've worked in bidding, both in large multinationals, small medium enterprises.
[13:36.9]
You've worked across public and private sector as well. So you've, you've got a wealth of the, the knowledge there of different industries and different sectors. Yeah. And people are going to listen to this and think, well, that's going to be heavily different.
[13:53.8]
Right. But from a bid point of view, there must be some similarities in there. Have there been? And how's that helped your development in the profession so far? Yeah, I think definitely, my move after Delarue into CGI was one that really exposed me to how important the bidding function is, as cgi, working in it.
[14:20.3]
Although I didn't have the sort of technical background knowledge, I understood the process, I understood what good looks like in the sense that we have to be compliant. We need to make sure that we're addressing our clients needs, we need to be clear, we need to be persuasive. And I think going into cgi, I was working, in the utilities, sort of like business hub.
[14:41.1]
We're working on some huge bids, some SI bids, but it was almost, I was almost bolted on as a proposal writer there. So yeah, I was obviously interviewing SMEs. I was on the ground collecting case studies, knowledge capture, working a little bit with executives.
[15:01.0]
But mainly the bid team was me, the bid manager and a bid coordinator. And we sort of had to almost not fight but stress our value to these. Obviously these guys who are, you know, their time's very valuable. They are, you know, exact VPs and executives of the business.
[15:18.8]
So they almost saw the bidding function as maybe a little bit of a step to navigate as opposed to a real helper. And I think me and the bid manager and the bid team, we kind of had to show value early.
[15:35.8]
And whether that was by getting involved in pink reviews at an earlier stage, really getting involved in the storyboarding more actively, win themes, discussions, that kind of thing. I think slowly they kind of realized that, okay, these guys can really help us do the best that we can do.
[15:51.4]
And it's that it's showing that strategic value early. And getting that executive sponsorship is a really real key part of that. As cgi, that was a little bit more difficult, obviously, coming in at an earlier stage of my career. But currently, now at technovo, at a smaller, SME, you really feel that faith and that trust, in the bid team.
[16:10.2]
And a core part of my role now isn't just the bid writing, it's storyboarding, it's capture, it's working with the sales team to look at new opportunities. And it's that synergy between all the hubs that you really feel an, SME, at Technova, like where I'm currently at, a big part of that also is the difference between working online mainly and being physically there in the office.
[16:31.9]
I think at, cgi, it was a case where everyone, we were working on these huge bits. Everyone was up north, everyone was sort of down south. We had to really consolidate people in these big rooms. We were doing proposal management on compliance matrixes and meetings for, like, hours, hours and hours, checking every line, checking everyone's status to the questions.
[16:51.5]
Obviously, yes, important to get the job done. But often when you lose that real team feeling, if you're doing storyboarding online, if you're doing that kind of like checking online, and also they feel like it's, oh, okay, we've got another meeting, we've got another CQS meeting, and that you really lose the spark.
[17:10.5]
And I think the big difference now is that being in person, being in the office, being around people, they naturally feel your energy and they feel your passion for it, and that naturally translates into them giving better outputs, has been my finding, at least.
[17:27.2]
But again, I think a big part of that is executive sponsorship. If the leadership know that you're an important function, if the leadership want you to do well, and that will translate across all the teams that need to contribute. No, it's really good insight, Michael. Thank you.
[17:43.1]
Resonates with me quite a lot, to be honest, because, I spent probably 12, 13 years in two massive multinational organizations and then working for a smaller company now. Yeah, you can see where some of those similarities are, but actually some of those advantages where you get things just done a little bit quicker slicker, because there's less layers of, approvals or authorization that you need to go through.
[18:15.2]
Exactly, exactly. Do you think, though, that regardless of where you are in an organization, big, small, public, private sector, when you look at what you've done in your career, so far you've been able to shift the perception of your role in bid writing specifically from operational to strategic really quickly.
[18:50.5]
How do you help people to understand that? How do you get them to the same realization that you, must have had quite early on, which is, hey, my role is much more than, as you said earlier, just writing bids.
[19:06.4]
Yeah, yeah, no, that's an excellent question. I think for me it's, it's, it's a can do attitude, right? You can't go into. Or my personal approach is you can't go to any role and think, okay, this is it, I'm, just gonna do my job, go home. That's it.
[19:22.4]
I, I found out pretty early at CGI that there were so many opportunities for me to not only socialize with people that are outside of my direction, sort of like bidding team or business hub. I knew that there were proposal writers of bid writers scattered all across CGI uk.
[19:38.2]
So one of the first things I did was, was inquire and ask like, is there any sort of like, forum for us to meet, share ideas, to, you know, capture knowledge so we can consolidate case studies effectively? Because essentially we're all going to be writing about similar things. You know, we're a big business. But at a company like cgi, the, the knowledge capture is, is a little bit disparate.
[19:58.1]
So one of the first things I did was see if there was something like that available and there wasn't. So I thought, okay, this is a great opportunity for me to get everyone together, all the proposal writers, all the bid writers, get them into a nice forum, called it the CGI UK's writers network. Set that up, founded that. Very proud to have to have started that and also know that it's still going on now.
[20:17.6]
So glad that it wasn't just sitting with me. But I noticed from the beginning when we started, people were a little bit hesitant to shout about their job, to talk about the things that they were struggling with, to talk about the things that they enjoyed. And so it was really a bit of coaxing, a little bit of like, okay, guys, like, you know, we're all together as a team.
[20:36.9]
We might not be working directly with each other, but we're all facing similar issues. So let's work together, let's get together, let's, let's enjoy the work that we're doing. And I think it is that shift from siloed teams into that one team mentality, whether or not that's a big team or within roles, similarly, my current company at Technovo, it's a case of, okay, I've come in to a smaller bid team, but no one really knows what we're doing in the sense that, okay, yeah, we know there's bids coming in.
[21:05.0]
We need you for a storyboard. So a big part of my work here is introducing people to bids, letting them understand how we sit across the business, how when we have an important deadline, it's really important that you guys are involved and actively want to help us, because that's going to help the business do better.
[21:20.9]
And I think that's really translated well. Recently, I know we've had a few bid. No bids go into the no bid way, but we've done the capture, we've done the kickoff, and everyone's really excited to get involved. And often when they're not involved, they're like, oh, can I, you know, can I join? We're like, no, I need your expertise with this one.
[21:36.4]
But I think that's the attitude that you want to foster. You want to, you want people that are going to help and are excited to help, and often working at a bigger organization, you. They do feel like it's a little bit of a chore. So it's moving that from, okay, we have to do this too.
[21:52.4]
We want to do this. And I think that's key. Yeah, no, I love that. Again, completely resonates with me. I've been in those sort of situations before, and I think what's really important there is, as you've mentioned, Michael, is that collaboration, and how you bring people on the journey.
[22:13.5]
And as you've mentioned, you've set up the bid writer network there at cgi, which I love, the fact is still going on. There's a bit of a legacy. There is. Lovely. How, how do you think we can take that?
[22:30.6]
So if you take that as kind of, you, know, the fostering of collaboration within the bid team, how do we then make sure that we extend that out and achieve the same success with the rest of the organization?
[22:46.9]
Take a subject matter, experts, for example. And what differences do you see there in the approach of making sure that they understand bidding better, they understand what your role is, and you're setting clear expectations of them, of what they can get from you, but of what you need from them?
[23:09.9]
I think that, again, that's an excellent question. And a, big part of that, as I mentioned before, is that executive sponsorship. So if they know that the leadership want to go a certain way and that we are bidding for certain things, for a certain outcome, then naturally an SME is going to want to help because that's going to help them in their role.
[23:30.7]
But I think another part of that also is just really understanding them as well and understanding that they have a day job and understanding that, yes, this might not be something that they naturally do day to day, or they might be slightly uncomfortable with, but leveling with them and saying, look, you know, I appreciate you only have an hour of our time.
[23:52.6]
I need to go through this, this and this. What do you think is going to. How do you think you can contribute the most? So it's being open and honest about it, right? It's not a case of, okay, I need to get all this information from you, I need you to answer it this way. It's, it's, it's collaboration, right? It's, it's a strategic conversation with them as well as a strategic conversation with the wider team.
[24:12.8]
And I think it's, it's just leveling with them and being honest. I especially face a little bit of pushback, now, even now, earlier on in my career, where it's like, okay, this guy straight out of uni, like, what does he know about, 100 million pound si, you know, what does he know?
[24:30.3]
But again, I stress that, listen, I'm not, I'm not here to tell you what to say. I'm not here to give you the answers. I'm literally here to use my skills to help you answer better. And I think that I can do that. And slowly, as I've worked with more and more SMEs, I think the experience of doing that really translates, to the extent where now it's, as I mentioned before, they're like, let me help even if we don't need the help.
[24:55.4]
So I think that's a win. Yeah. What I love about what you said there, Mike, is the communication bit is really key, obviously. But then actually that I think sometimes if we want to be understood in what our roles are, we have to show that we're going to other people with an understanding of what they are dealing with.
[25:23.4]
And that kind of helps, doesn't it? I think. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's quite maybe an easier part of our role because we know how they fit in with our wider bid strategy and if we can kind of show them that, right, you're here, you're going to help us get to here, then hopefully that sort of, that clear direction means, that they are more encouraged to help.
[25:49.1]
So what do you think's been your biggest success story in that collaboration? What do you look back on and say maybe perhaps it was as you mentioned, a challenging SME or something like that.
[26:08.5]
What would you look back on and go I'm really pleased with that. I impacted real change there. Give me a flavor of that. Yeah, I think there's a few things. I think coming into Technovo, I knew that I would be joining a much smaller team and I knew that the writing aspect would be maybe secondary to the sort of knowledge library creation.
[26:37.3]
That idea of creating sort of like new bid templates, a whole new bid kickoff deck, a whole new strategy that's going to really streamline our operations. And I knew that that was a role that perhaps wasn't going to be in my everyday like job description. But the stage that we've got to now, I've been here just over a year now, but the stage that we're at now compared to when I first joined is, is night and day and even the people that we're working with is like wow, okay.
[27:02.1]
I really understand that you know, buzzwords, for example, like pink review, red review, gold review is, is something that we take for granted. We're like okay, yeah, we know what that means. But do the people who are doing the reviews really understand the meaning and the purpose and why we do it? And it was a lot of education that was needed to help them to understand why we do the things we do.
[27:22.9]
And yes, it's a process. Yes it can sound laborious, but we're owning the process. You're helping us fulfill all the gates that we need to do to get to a final objective. So I'm really proud of the work that Technobo, way that the bid hub and the commercials and the sales team really come together to create a function that's really, really, really good at the moment.
[27:45.4]
And the bids that we're bidding for aren't just bids that are like, okay, we're just going to shot in the dark. It's really strategic, really thought out and really the idea that we come in and help our clients have meaningful change and also change that is long lasting.
[28:00.5]
We don't, we don't really go in and say okay, we're just going to do this work for you and that's it. We really help them create, be self sufficient and sort of run on their own two feet. But aside from that as well, a more sort of like personal thing is I did a lot of early careers things at cgi and that was really telling people about bidding, at cgi, there was a really good grad scheme that they do there and after they graduate, they can basically choose the direction that they want to go to.
[28:26.9]
A lot of people go into pmo. A lot of people go into like account management, that kind of thing. And so I was invited on by the bid director there to do a little talk about again, similar to kind of what we're doing here. We're like, so why are we going to bidding? Why did you go into bidding? Why do you enjoy bidding? I, think There was like 150 odd people there.
[28:42.4]
And after the meeting we had like 20, 25 people like Reach out and say like, can we find out a bit more? That kind of thing. And you know, I feel like that's quite, quite a fair few people there, especially for people who weren't like planning on doing that anyway. So even, even a little bit of interest, like that is good.
[28:58.3]
And I feel like my passion for the career path really, helps people say like, okay, you know, it's not just, it's not just writing, it's not just coordinating. So yeah, I would say those two amazing. And I'd love to dig into that second one a little bit more.
[29:13.9]
Yes, Michael, now with you. So look, like you say you, you've been in those situations where you've taken things that you've learned in your career so far, and you've been able to really put your passion and enthusiasm across to potential new entrants into the profession.
[29:39.0]
And not only that, you've helped them to understand how to navigate that operational to strategic shift from the very beginning. So when you're kind of having those chats with potential new entrants or people who have come into the profession from new, what are the first building blocks that you get them to focus on, to think about that strategic direction?
[30:11.6]
Yeah, I think, it's twofold for me. Obviously. Depends on the kind of person that you're speaking to, the kind of target audience. If I was to speak to someone who wants to get into sales, for example, I would really stress that idea of, okay, yes, we might not be on the phones, we might not be out the ground, you know, doing leaflets.
[30:34.8]
We don't have like a stand, but essentially what we're doing is we're creating a sales document. You know, we're understanding our clients needs and we're selling and how we do it and what we do within that doesn't really matter. We are Essentially, salesmen. Right. So I try and emphasize that.
[30:50.2]
I also emphasize that idea of. I know I had this in my notes. It was like, almost like gambling high stakes. That kind of idea of, like, yeah, we send out a bid and then we don't know if we're going to win it or not. Hopefully we have a good chance of doing it. But that idea of, okay, you know, the deadline's tomorrow and we're expecting a result tomorrow kind of gets your heart racing a bit personally.
[31:08.9]
And that's what I try and say. I say, like, not every job has those kind of feelings day to day. And, yeah, there are. There are, you know, slow days. There are days where you're sitting down and you're writing, where you're planning bid managing, coordinating, that kind of thing. But there are those sparks, and those sparks are worth it, in my opinion.
[31:28.3]
And then on the other side, I would say, you know, you don't necessarily have to see it as a strategic thing. I know plenty of really good bid writers at, cgi, for example, who love writing, who just want to write, who just want to storyboard. You just want to edit. And there's no, you know, there's no taboo about that either.
[31:43.5]
I think if you really want to become an SME in a certain part of the bid squad, there's so much scope to do that. Even bid coordination, even. Even bid managing, like, it's linear. Okay, you do bid writing, you do bid managing, you do bid directing or whatever. So then, yeah, there's two aspects of it.
[32:00.1]
It's whether or not you want to be looking at it as that strategic play, or if you're just really wanting to hone in as an SME in that operational manner. And I think both are, super respectable. But yeah, again, it depends on the target audience. Right. How we sell the. The role or the industry.
[32:17.7]
Do you know what, Mike? I think that's such a good thing to call out because we, we do still, I think, suffer as a profession from that, as you said, linear pathway. If I think about my own personal one, it was writer, into manager, then into team lead, etc.
[32:40.2]
But you're absolutely spot on. What do we do about the people who don't necessarily want to make that move into manager role because they don't want to lose the writing element? Yeah, I agree. I think it's something that we really need to get better at.
[32:56.4]
Yeah, I think, again, it's dependent on the organization that you're at. Right. If there's a need for you to pick up more hats. If there's a need for you to get involved in more things, that's inevitably going to mean that you do get those skills of proposal management, bid management, that capture stage, that more sort of like executive sales, presentation stage.
[33:16.9]
But if you're lucky enough to be at a big organization, where it is, okay, you are a proposal writer, level three, level four, level five, level six, then you really still do see that progression within that you get on more complex bids, you're trusted with more work. So yeah, again, there are different routes for it and there will, especially with ap.
[33:35.8]
Some of the work that they've been doing with the bid writing focus group, haven't been following it too, too closely, but have been seeing that they're really trying to create that as a profession and I think that's really important. So. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[33:52.1]
So where you are right now, like, I suppose being on, on both sides of it, you've come into the profession as new and been guided in the early part of your career in that, and you're also seeing how new entrants coming in as well and guiding them there.
[34:16.1]
For those of us who are a little more. Longer in the tooth, let's say, that might be a little bit more perhaps challenging for us. You know, our early careers were quite a while ago and in a different space and different time. Yeah.
[34:34.9]
But we need to make sure that anyone who's coming into our teams, particularly if we're in that sort of role, you know, we're looking after them, we're giving them what they need. Yeah, yeah. So from what you've seen from both sides, what would you say that good mentoring looks like for new entrants into the profession?
[34:58.9]
And what do, you know, what do people like me need to do to A, attract the next generation in as an intentional choice and then B, provide them with the mentoring to keep them in it.
[35:14.9]
So it's a big old question. I'll try and do both points, but I'm really glad you asked about managers because that's something that I really wanted to talk about in the sense that I've been lucky enough to have some really great managers since I started working in bids. And all the managers that I've had have been very different in the sense that I've managed to take the good bits from each one and hopefully use that to my advantage in some sense.
[35:41.4]
But I think traditionally when you are a bid manager and you're coaching someone for Example like a proposal writer or a bid coordinator. Often you have been a bid manager for a little while. You are ingrained in your ways of working and that is a good thing in the sense that yes, you know what good looks like, you know that we need to do certain things, you know how important it is to be compliant and that kind of thing.
[36:04.1]
And I think that will naturally translate into making sure that there are no sort of like silly mistakes and errors early on in the career. And I think that's a big part of bidding full stop. You need to be compliant, you need to be making sure that you do go through the appropriate governance gates.
[36:21.4]
You need to make sure that you do double triple check the upload portal, that you triple check the spelling and that kind of thing. And those are fundamentals across any of the roles that we do in bids. I think you need to learn that. And if you don't like that then maybe it's not for you.
[36:36.9]
But I don't see that as a negative per se. And I think a lot of my managers that I've had that have been very honing in on that aspect of like we can't do anything wrong, we shouldn't make mistakes, definitely a good thing for the profession. But also they realize that perhaps that wider strategic input, that wider sort of like sales spark wasn't going to come from them personally.
[36:59.4]
But they got me in the room with the people that have that and that are more aligned to that kind of coaching. And I think it's, it's that idea of being self aware, right. Like I haven't met anyone that's like, oh, I'm the best at everything I can, I can teach you everything you need to know.
[37:15.5]
You know, not only just within bids, but within marketing, within sales. It's, people are aware of what they can offer, most of the time and it's, it's having that self reflection and saying okay, you, if you're interested in this, go speak to this person. If you want to do this, go speak to that person.
[37:32.8]
And I think it's having that self reflection, that humility to say, you know, if someone is, is if you are managing someone and you can't provide them with exactly what they're after, what you think they might want. It's yeah, just being open and saying look, I'm sure someone else can and here's their details.
[37:48.2]
But that doesn't mean necessarily guiding them into a different path. It just means letting them explore their options per se. I'm not sure. I think I might have only just hit one point there. That's all good. And then let's flip that on its head. So we know, right, the profession is evolving all the time due to inside and outside influences.
[38:13.1]
You look at AI and automation, customer requirements are ever changing. To be honest, our own internal organizational expectations are changing as well. So as much as those of us who are more experienced can guide new entrants, do you see an opportunity for us to actually learn from them?
[38:40.6]
And what, does that look like? What should we be, you know, what should we be picking up from the next generation of bidders coming in? Yeah, no, I think AI is definitely a great leveler, in the sense that when at, its inception, everyone was still at that kind of immature stage of no one really knows how to use it, how best to use it.
[39:05.9]
Yeah, there were guidelines. Yeah, there were people who were coaching and that kind of thing. But realistically, the AIs that we're using are getting better and better. The way that we interact with it are changing basically day to day. So I think a leveler in the sense that, yes, potentially those who are coming new into the profession might be a little bit more astute to the nuances of ChatGPT, LLMs, that kind of thing, because they've been using it on other things, perhaps for essays at uni, which I wish I had, by the way.
[39:35.2]
So I think that is unique and that is something that has to be tapped into. It's that keenness to understand not only, okay, yeah, we're just going to put it into an AI and let it figure it out. It's the keenest to understand what kind of outputs mean, what kind of inputs mean you get the right outputs that you need.
[39:53.0]
And that's taken me ages to fully grasp and even still now it's not going to be consistent across the whole estate. But it's an experimentation thing. And I now, the way that I use AI at Tenova means that I'm a little bit of an SME in the sense that even if marketing need help doing X, if, you know, commercial need help running some numbers, I can do some bits on chords, on ChatGPT, creating sort of like custom prompts for people.
[40:18.7]
And that's, you know, that's not a core part of bidding in general, but it is a core part of interacting with AI. And I think it's unique in the sense that especially on the writing aspects and the sort of, word manipulation, that idea of like, needing to condense Paragraphs. But also keeping this core substance in is something that only comes with continuous experimentation.
[40:38.1]
And the amount that I've been using at cgi for example, and the amount I've been using it here only means that the outputs are getting better and better. So it's that idea of again, I know I mentioned it before, that idea of yes, be open minded as a manager, be open minded as those in senior leadership that maybe these, these, these people coming in and wanting to come into the profession know a little bit more than you think.
[40:58.9]
And then it's just a sense of guiding them to what good looks like and how that fits within the bid process. Whether that be reviews, a second set of reviews using AI. I remember one particular example at CGI where they'd never really heard of, of AI reviews.
[41:15.9]
And so me sort of like I was in a room with these like 10, 10 VPs and I was teaching them how to like put custom prompts in, putting the evaluated like the mark scheme in and say, and saying like look, please be as, as, as critical as possible. And they were all super enthusiastic about it.
[41:32.5]
And I was thinking in my head like, you know what, what do I know, right? Like these guys are all experts. So I think that's a good way of how I personally got, got over my imposter syndrome because really, you know, there are people who get into the back end of these systems and really understand the coding and, or huge respect to them.
[41:51.3]
But I personally I'm not like that. I'm just using the front end. I'm, I'm working, I'm iterating and I think anyone can do that with enough time and practice. So yeah, just, just see it as, as a sort of opportunity to learn more from, from, from both parties. And I love the fact that you touched on the humility element as well because I think that's a big shift that I'm seeing in leadership at the moment, particularly with more human cent through.
[42:21.6]
Is that where perhaps, you know, I'm thinking 15 years ago at the start of my career, somebody new coming in may have been with skills that your more established people may not have had would be seen as a.
[42:39.4]
Maybe it's a bit of a threat. It's now being seen as much more of an opportunity and I think that's a really important shift. Right? Yeah. And you know what, I mentioned it a few times like throughout some of these questions, but I think there's a real big value in feeling appreciated not only as a bids team, but feeling that you have the executive sponsorship.
[43:03.6]
And I know I've said it before, but at, the company that I'm at currently, it's not only a case of, okay, yeah, we want to win, it's understanding that we're a core function and we are driving revenue, essentially. And that's a big part of bids, full stop.
[43:19.2]
And it's a big part of how I see the profession. Well, how I think the profession should be viewed across any business. So, yeah, my little two cents. That's brilliant. Michael, these have been fantastic insights. Thank you so much for sharing them.
[43:35.4]
We usually like to end the podcast with a little bit of a quick fire segment. Are you, you up for a couple of quick fire questions? Hit me, hit me. Okay, let's go for it. What do you think's the most underrated skill for a bid professional?
[43:54.5]
I think clarity of communication in the sense that getting your point across as concisely as possible, not only on the page, but also to people who you're speaking to. Yeah, absolutely agree with that.
[44:10.9]
Okay, let's, let's bust the biggest myth that you think exists about the bid profession.
[44:22.5]
I think I had, I had an answer to this, but I'm going to change it last minute. I'm going to say that I think there is a bit of an assumption that those who work within bids are inherently introverted. I think we need to, we need to open up and be as extroverted as possible about our profession.
[44:40.2]
And then hopefully that attracts the same level of people who are passionate about doing what they do and really want to help advance the career, not only within their business, but also as a wider capability. Oh, do you know what that, that hits?
[44:55.4]
Because I, it's, fair to say I'm being honest. I've made that assumption in the past, both about myself and other people. People. And I think, yeah, it is probably an assumption that we, we do need to challenge ourselves on. So that's a, that's a great one.
[45:11.8]
Okay, final one. If you could offer just one piece of advice to any new bid professional listening, what would it be? I would say, and it is something that we touched upon earlier as well. It's that idea of don't think of your career as something that has to progress upwards, in the sense of role title.
[45:36.5]
I think there's a great benefit of being an expert in the thing that you do and being proud of the thing that you do and not having a taboo around your title as writer is just a writer or bid manager. Just A manager. I think when you work with people and you show your capabilities and you show your skills, that's naturally going to come across and there's no need to caveat anything that you do.
[45:59.5]
That's a lovely answer. I couldn't agree more. Appreciate it. Fantastic. So let's wrap up on what we've learned today and let's reflect on some of the key takeaways that Michael's given us. I think the first one for me is think of your role as being strategic.
[46:19.6]
It doesn't matter which role you have and you don't always have to be on that linear pathway. You can be strategic, whatever role that you're in. The second one would be really look for that exec sponsorship. Make sure that you are really communicating your value and, what you do as a bid professional and what your team does across the organisation as much as you can.
[46:45.5]
And the final one for me would be, let's think about how we're encouraging new entrants into the profession and let's make sure that as much as we're giving them the benefit of our experience, we're being open enough to learn from them too.
[47:01.9]
Perfectly put, Matt. So, look, Michael, really want to thank you for, your time on this and some really great insights. I'd encourage everybody to, take a look at Michael on LinkedIn and connect with him to get some really great stuff.
[47:20.4]
You mentioned also the, APMP bid writing group as well. I'm just going to do a quick plug for that. Do go and have a look, at them, particularly if you're in a bid writer. And as Michael mentioned, earlier, they're doing some great work around Pathways, specifically in the writer, scope of a role.
[47:42.3]
So do go and have a look at them there. Michael, thanks again for your time, ever so much. It's been great to talk to you, having me on. No problem at all. Thanks very much for listening. This has been the Optimize podcast brought to you by Visible Thread and we'll see you again soon.
[48:03.2]
You've been listening to the Optimize podcast from Visible Thread. A special thank you to our host, Matt Light, for bringing his experience and passion for the bidding profession to the series. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe wherever you're listening to.
[48:18.6]
Stay up to date with future episodes and series from industry experts. Thanks for listening.